The Hot Topic Returns

[Sly Reflex]

They are already made PS1 aesthetic a thing. It's been a thing for a while.

[Maryokutai]

I remember playing that little MGS1 homage shortly after the Switch came out, Never Stop Sneaking. That was cute.

 

But I also don't think you can mix the presentation of these games together with their controls. Interactivity is the one thing that sets apart games from other media forms. I like the look of (some) 32bit stuff and early DC/PS2 games. If done right they are build out well enough to portray a certain scenario in a somewhat believable way but simultaneously leave enough wiggle room for your imagination to fill the blanks. There's something inherently mysterious about the first couple of Tomb Raider games that is directly linked to the way they look and the limitations that let to said look. But the further we move away from them the harder it will be to adjust to their archaic control schemes.

 

I picked that example because the remasters of those games come out soon. I'm actually looking forward to find out whether or not the modern controls gel with the classic presentation or if the entire thing just falls apart then.

[one-armed dwarf]

In my view the only thing which has really changed over time wrt controls is their standardisation and our own level of patience and free time wrt adjusting to them. Otherwise, a game like Tomb Raider was just as awkward to play in 1996 as everything was lurching forward to establish movement in 3d space in the best fashion it could figure. But that is still part of what makes them interesting to revisit, the different implementations and design ideas that weren't all carried forward

 

For remasters like that, the best way is to offer modern and classic styles, like they did with Resident Evil. Lots of people will refuse to play with the tank controls, that's fine. But it's also a system that's designed in tandem with everything else in that game so it should at least be preserved. Gothic has its own weird control scheme which I had to learn when I went back to it, but at the end of it I found it to actually be intrinsically coherent to the way everything else works in that game, to the point that I ended up using the same control system rather than the 'updated' one they made in Gothic II when I played it. 

 

Controls are a big part of a game's design language after all

[Nag]

No official question this week and it's now getting to a point where I can't remember which/who's questions I've used... so apologies if a repeat gets used.😉

 

 

Quote

@DANGERMAN asks "are the stories in games important to you?"

 

[AndyKurosaki]

They absolutely are. I enjoy a nonsensical, non story based game as much as anyone. But a good story can make or break a game. I’ve played every single Yakuza game, and the story has always been a part of my enjoyment of that series. Seeing Kiryu’s journey, has firmly cemented him as my favourite character in all of gaming. 
 

The Mass Effect games had a bloody cracking story to tell, ME2 especially.

 

When a story is bad, or boring, it has a detrimental impact on the game. I finished Assassins Creed Mirage last year, and I can’t tell you a thing about it, storywise. I genuinely can’t remember any of the characters, or what happened, it was that forgettable.

[OCH]

I've known people that are all about the gameplay (or graphics). That's the paramount thing for them. For me it's story. Second is normally aesthetic. Probably spoiled growing up with rich storylines like Legacy of Kain, Eternal Darkness or Front Mission 3. Expecting that to be the norm.

But even down to genres like Fighters, I value Mortal Kombat, Eternal Champions or Power Stone. Over a Virtua Fighter or Street Fighter. The latter being where the story is not the focus. I think back to a PSOne game called Guardian's Crusade. Even then, not the prettiest game in the world. But the story was endearing enough that I still remember it, 26 years later.

[Maf]

Red Dead 2 is in the image above. A game with great characters, stories, themes, etc I’ve still never finished it. I’m assuming the guy dies at the end, but I honestly don’t know. I honestly don’t really care. It’s the achievement in setting which makes it one of my favourite open world games of recent years not the story. I don’t know how it ends, but I spent a lot of time hunting, fishing, taming rare horses, finding collectibles and secret cheat codes and it’s the world. The enjoyment of exploration and the game’s attention to detail is the part that kept me playing. One of the greatest stories in recent games and it’s not as much fun to me as finding a dream catcher hanging from a tree. 
 

Reverse to that is I started playing Yakuza Like a Dragon last year on Gamepass. Even though I think the game has great personality, humour and language (The game starts with the main character talking about how much he loves Dragon Quest which appealed to me. Then when someone asks him to get a toilet plunger for them the character’s response is a very loud “FUCK OFF” which I think is a great joke about early game fetch quests and I laughed very hard) but the part where you play it is not very good. The city is the most Lego block video game city I remember seeing. The turn based combat is turn based combat. The game is super hand hold-y, at least in the beginning. The time playing to time watching ratio is super unbalanced the wrong way. It’s not that I dislike it, I think what makes it entertaining is it’s unique writing and quirky characters, but I need the game to come alive and do something, otherwise it’s not going to be enough and I haven’t played it in well over a month

 

The best story in a game I’ve played recently is TotK because it’s the best combination of author and player I’ve seen to date. I didn’t really like Tears of the Kingdom when I first played it last year. For the first month every time I picked it up I put it down faster and faster each time. It’s because in BotW, as soon as that game let me out the tutorial I ignored what the game wanted me to do, went East, got lost and didn’t end up back at the first story point in the game until 80 hours later. I tried to force the same experience with TotK, but the game is a different beast and instead of going off on your own you have to let the game take you where it wants. The thing that clicked with me in that game is I said fuck it, I’m just going to do whatever is in front of me. I then had a 4 hour experience that took me to the depths, to the skies, to mountain tops, to secret underground dungeons, to riding on dragons, to end game coliseums, to sky diving, to boss battles, to multi-layered puzzle solving, to learning how to build rocket powered balloon rides, to pure skin of the teeth survival spending all my strongest weapons and one-shot kill arrow ammunition just to get away from the danger. I was rewarded constantly with surprise, experience and material for the entire fucking time and it’s the best story I can talk about in a game for years. That game can deliver the absolute perfect adventure and no one even needs to speak at all. 
 

If a game has a good, traditional story it’s a bonus, but it’s not really important to me. Long gone are the days of Metal Gear, Mass Effect and Halo where I felt really invested in the story and wanted the next chapter not just for the game, but also for the drama. Normal story is really down the list for me in games. It’s good when it’s there, but the buttons, experience, and natural interest from playing have to come first. 

[mfnick]

Hell yea stories matter to me in games. Andy has already mentioned a couple of my favourites. A lot of my fondest memories and games are ones which hooked me in because of the story. 
 

Some games it gets added unnecessarily- such as in racing games. I don’t need it. But it doesn’t detract at all and they can usually be skipped. So yea, give me all story all the time. 

[one-armed dwarf]

I like good story in games but I'm finding that I'm not always really finding it, and a lot of AAA games have went in this sort of direction where it feels like they are emulating blockbuster movies now, with a lot of the same cliches that tired me of those films in the cinema. So I've no interest now in things like Spiderman or Horizon, the big budget games are just too YA imo. I mean they are literally aimed at a younger audience I suppose so it makes sense and I'm fine with not playing them, but Horizon is up there in the image so I just decided to say it

 

I think though, mentioned above, that integration of setting into narrative-gameplay design adds a lot to the immersion of interacting in worlds like that. I really disliked RDRII but it is sort of peerless when it comes to these magical little details that make the world convincing. It just happens to maybe go too far into the other extreme for me, into the tedium of verisimilitude at all costs. One of its more daring things is (major spoilers)*

Spoiler

your character getting a terminal illness (TB) and all those 'cores' you've been managing the whole time suddenly acquire a more sadistic urgency in the gameplay mechanics, and IMO it is actually a really impressive thing the game does with that stuff. But I did not have the patience for it, perhaps cause I was already fucked up in a different way physically at the time of playing. Maybe now I'd have a different view of it, I don't know. I was all into that kinda thing when Pathologic did it

 

But I think what games can do is leverage friction within gameplay mechanics to convince you that the setting is something tangible and not just a themepark. I also think that the new Zelda games do that excellently. 

[AndyKurosaki]

Red Dead Redemption 2 is an excellent call. That was a moment you didn’t see coming, and made me feel more invested in Arthur’s character. 

 

Compare that to the main character in AC: Mirage. I can’t even remember his bloody name 😄

[spatular]

Yeah depends on the game though, arcade/racing/rhythm games dont need a story, but if im playing an rpg or something like that like a yakuza game like Andy already mentioned im probably playing more for the story because im not so into fighting and turn based combat stuff., so if the story is good it makes a big difference to my enjoyment. Also i dont know if this fits in but it doesnt always have to be the main story but if the writing and interactions/side story/comedy stuff like that is good then that can make a good game too.

Dont think i answered last weeks but yeah i play old games sometimes, they can still be really good.

 

[DANGERMAN]

@AndyKurosaki is right about Yakuza. I love the series, and the combat is obviously a big part of that, but without the winding, ultra dramatic stories to hang it all off it wouldn't work. It's not Gears, Xcom or something similar, where the combat encounters are precisely designed, with cover and routines, it's some lads stood around in a circle getting knocked about by Kiryu

 

There's games like Horizon Zero Dawn where I wasn't really feeling it until the story kicked in. There's even games where I've disliked them because of the story. I loved Ni No Kuni, but I couldn't stand Ni No Kuni 2. The gameplay was fine, if too easy, but I couldn't bring myself to help the spoilt little shit reclaim "his" kingdom. Similarly the last Dragon Quest game, I liked that, but considering how adorable the new graphics made the enemies, it becomes so flat because the story just has absolutely nothing to it

 

Conversely, some of the games I talk about the most, be that To The Moon, Dear Esther, Spec Ops, they're nothing but story really, you certainly aren't playing for the gameplay

[Nag]

Seeing as it's been mentioned a couple of times I'll say Horizon Zero Dawn was a recent story I thought was done really well... and I'm a sucker for a post apocalyptic setting... then Forbidden West came along and in my opinion completely wrecked all that hard work, I kind've hated where the second game went.

 

Another game series that isn't given it's fair do's is Gears... admittedly I've consumed a lot of the added lore through the novels but that (especially the original trilogy) is really good stuff and a big part of why I love that series so much.

[Maryokutai]

13 hours ago, DANGERMAN said:

Similarly the last Dragon Quest game, I liked that, but considering how adorable the new graphics made the enemies, it becomes so flat because the story just has absolutely nothing to it

 

Do you mean XI? Because I actually stopped playing that game after its second late-game twist. I found it borderline depressing to be honest. I do respect the decision because it's not only risky, but also not easy to pull that off in the context of a very basic "good vs evil" plot with a mute protagonist to boot. But it really wasn't for me. 

 

In more general terms, we have so many different genres and experiences out there it's difficult to really answer that in a broader sense. I like it when you can see that both the game itself and the story have been constructed in tandem, like the aforementioned Spec Ops: The Line, but I'd also mention games like Psychonauts, Mcgee's Alice or Life is Strange as good examples for that. I don't think any of these games would work with either a very basic plot or none at all, so it's kind of in inverted approach to design than what Nintendo historically does.

 

I've also recently played a few games that I think would have been better with an engaging narrative. Atlas Fallen is the first example that comes to mind -- I really enjoyed it last year, but its storyline was fundamentally unoriginal, uninteresting and also not particularly well told. Its biggest issue is the lack of intriguing characters. For example, people love ME2, but I doubt anyone does so for that Collector plot but rather its Seven Samurai approach to building everything around a central cast of really interesting, unique and believable (in their own way) characters.

[shinymcshine]

I sort of want to say yes - but often due to the length of gameplay, and the fragmented way the story is often told over many hours, I probably don't care too much about it (esp. if it has a whole bunch of convoluted plot twists etc).

 

That said what I really enjoy (esp. in RPGs) is the wrap up summaries you get on game completion about what your party members did next (based on your actions during the game).

 

So I probably mean is that I like the stories that I create through gameplay, more than an overarching predefined story where I'm simply an 'actor' who who no real influence on the outcome.

[DANGERMAN]

5 hours ago, Maryokutai said:

 

Do you mean XI? Because I actually stopped playing that game after its second late-game twist. I found it borderline depressing to be honest. I do respect the decision because it's not only risky, but also not easy to pull that off in the context of a very basic "good vs evil" plot with a mute protagonist to boot. But it really wasn't for me. 

 

Yeah. Honestly, I don't remember there being a twist at all, that's how dull the story and characters were. It feels like Dragon Quest leans too much on being an old series, which is a shame because 4, 5 and 6 all have something too them. Even 8, which is straight forward as a plot, has memorable characters 

[Nag]

In terms of a games story having a detrimental effect on a game there's a couple that spring to mind... Assassins Creed 3 is probably the most boring game I've ever played, that includes story and protagonist... and it was the stories fault that I gave up on Final Fantasy XII as i found that to be mind numbingly boring too.

[OCH]

Just now, Nag said:

I gave up on Final Fantasy XII as i found that to be mind numbingly boring too.

While interesting in the end, it took far too long to get there.

 

A story over gameplay favourite of mine will always be Asura's Wrath. The gameplay being the least important part of the entire package.

[Maryokutai]

3 hours ago, OCH said:

While interesting in the end, it took far too long to get there.

 

I've always felt like the ending is kind of the only bad part of that game.

 

The story isn't bad though, it's just told from a oddly detached perspective. Imagine a story taking place during the French revolution but you play as a merry circus band operating on the southern border of the country, only occasionally hearing about what happens via newspapers and gossip. But I still kind of like it because the characters are good (if a bit underdeveloped) and it avoids the classic chosen one trope, which is very rare in JRPG land.

 

@DANGERMAN (Massive spoiler about DQXI)

Spoiler

Towards the end you decide to go back in time to prevent the semi-apocalypse, but have to leave your entire party behind in that messed-up world. I didn't dislike the party as much as you did, so that moment was very unfulfilling and depressing to witness. 

 

[OCH]

37 minutes ago, Maryokutai said:

I've always felt like the ending is kind of the only bad part of that game.

I meant by the end of the game, the story was interesting. Not the ending specifically. Without boring everyone else. Considering this game is part of the Ivalice Alliance games. I would have cut every party member aside from Basch, Balthier and Ashe. Rebranding the game as Vagrant Story 2 and tweaking the games plot to fit that narrative better.