The Hot Topic Returns

[shinymcshine]

I don't think you can ever really experience the utter contemplation, frustration and trail/error of a point and click adventure (or even more retro, a text based adventure) knowing nowadays that the solution is a simple Google search away.

[OCH]

30 minutes ago, shinymcshine said:

I don't think you can ever really experience the utter contemplation, frustration and trail/error of a point and click adventure (or even more retro, a text based adventure) knowing nowadays that the solution is a simple Google search away.

If you know, you know.

[shinymcshine]

There's an infamously obtuse puzzle in GK3:

https://kotaku.com/how-we-survived-adventure-gamings-most-hair-tearingly-r-5903932

[OCH]

I recall more recently I played Machinarium (PS3) and there was a puzzle involving a '5 in a row' board game. I just couldn't work out how beat it and had to look up what to do. Annoyed at myself for having to do so though. 

 

But I suppose technically obtuse direction does count. Since it is extremely rare in modern gaming.

 

 

For example, Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee (PS1). You have to free all the Mudokons on the each level before you can leave. Otherwise you are more or less locked out of the Good Ending. Except by the time you reach the end of level 1. You've probably saved all the Mudokons seen on your linear path to the exit. Probably about 12-15? Thinking that must be all of them?

You are informed on a screen at the exit that there are 28. That's when you begin to realise that "straight forward" left to right 2D platformer map isn't all it appears. The relatively short first level map, in fact looks like this:

 

Spoiler

 

[HandsomeDead]

I think if I really want to play an old game, I'd usually take it for what it is and roll with it.  If it's bothering me to the point of dropping it I probably wasn't really that interested.

 

I have a lot to say about this subject, and have already in some topics but I'll try and keep it brief.  Overall though I am of the opinion that if you do have an interest in games to be so dismissive of the history is really throws into question how much I think you are really into them.  Are you someone who just plays games or are you someone with an invested interest.  That may sound gatekeep-y, maybe it is, but it is a distinction I will use for people, especially content creators.

 

Like, I mentioned before I saw someone play through Mass Effect before I played Andromeda for a bit and it was a re-upload of a Twitch stream so unfortunately I saw some of the chat.  And there is just lots of incorrect people out there.  If they were young, weren't there at the time, I'd be more forgiving but I suspect some of those chatters weren't to far from our age.  They talked about Mass Effect in a way that just felt ahistorical to me.  That the game is just the way it is because its old but that's just not accurate.  Mass Effect was always carried by it's story, characters and world.  I can't remember really anyone in 2007 thinking it's a great playing action RPG.  It was tolerable at best.  There are older ARPGs that play better (The now beloved Yakuza for one).  In fact, someone playing Mass Effect now has to approach it in a similar way to we did in 2007 and so many current games in the same genre suffer from similar problems.  The discussion just seems to be flattened and missing real context.

 

The tank controls one drives me a little mad.  I saw a bit of someone play REmake with the controls they added for the remaster from 2014 I think.  I am at the point I think they're sacrilegious.  Not only do you look a fool spinning on the spot when the camera angle changes but the point isn't to be running around unfamiliar areas.  It's easier to spin on a dime when sprinting so you can correct when you run right into the path of a zombie, but that's supposed to be a punished action.  Tension is built in the slower pace, moving in a way that keeps you safe.  And it's just not a difficult concept, up is forward.

It's sad, because authored camera angles are so good for certain kinds of games.  And they're so memorable and you can make the environments so detailed and tank controls are the best way to navigate them but with a reluctance to use them we never see games made like that anymore.

 

I guess in a way it can make older games feel fresh.  Concepts that were dropped over time for no real good reason other than they never caught on, even if they were executed well, are still alive in these older games.  Maybe something will find a reason to come back but for now it's the only place you find them.

[mfnick]

Great post! 
 

Also, tank controls rule! I don’t know why people hate them so much, they suit those types of games perfectly as you say. I get a weird sense of satisfaction using them too, no idea why, possibly nostalgia based. They’re not that easy to actually get working right easy so it’s not a lazy decision to use. Take Signalis for example, and that has a tank control option which I wanted to use but it’s implemented really badly - mainly because it forces you to use the analogue stick still which is one of the most ridiculous brain dead decisions ever. 

[one-armed dwarf]

I was kinda bummed that the new Armored Core didn't have more tanky movement. The mechs literally twist and spin on the spot, and turning speed stops being a consideration in mech design. In the old games, everything affects how the mech can turn and rotate

 

I think people forget stuff like that, the 'clunkiness' can have a design intention behind it all. It's not like they sat down and were like 'well, our control system is shit, we did our best'. They did it the way they intended

[Nag]

It's true that watching people using the modern control scheme on Remake can result in violent behaviour...

[HandsomeDead]

59 minutes ago, mfnick said:

Great post! 
 

Also, tank controls rule! I don’t know why people hate them so much, they suit those types of games perfectly as you say. I get a weird sense of satisfaction using them too, no idea why, possibly nostalgia based. They’re not that easy to actually get working right easy so it’s not a lazy decision to use. Take Signalis for example, and that has a tank control option which I wanted to use but it’s implemented really badly - mainly because it forces you to use the analogue stick still which is one of the most ridiculous brain dead decisions ever. 

 

I think Signalis isn't a game that is designed for tank controls, or it doesn't seem to be.  It's all top down, directional controls are fine for that.  It's why tank controls would probably feel as weird as directional controls for RE.  In both cases they were retrofitted for an assumed audience.  Options are all well and good until they start really comprising the game.

[mfnick]

True, it wasn’t designed around those controls at all and the camera angles didn’t suit it but that still doesn’t excuse it from feeling so bad. 

[Craymen Edge]

Old PC games...

 

 

[DANGERMAN]

Mario Sunshine is a game that springs to mind, I really liked it at the time, now I just think it's a poor game. To even it out, I suppose Sonic Adventure, back then the more impressive elements meant you'd brush off the weird bits and broken bits, now I think the game is too long to do that with, especially when the highs aren't as high 

 

There's also plenty of decent games from way back that just aren't good enough nowadays. Even something like Space Invaders, which I still like, feels very flat and boring now 

[radiofloyd]

I’ve always more or less played retro games concurrently with new games. One of the first games I ever played was Fantasy World Dizzy and I downloaded and enjoyed it all over again many times. It’s probably due another go.

Another game that I loved as a kid was The Siege of Avalon, which was probably the game that gave me my love of western style crpgs. I’ve just realized that the full game is available on GOG so I may have to revisit that too.

 

In terms of old games that are difficult to play now, I would say that Star Control and Wing Commander are up there. Also, the Quest for Glory games. 

 

[Nag]

 

Quote

@DANGERMAN says... "with a couple of big releases skipping a physical release, how long do you think physical has left, do you still buy physical, and will you miss it when it's gone?"

 

[OCH]

While I lean towards physical. I have bought some stuff that isn't. The preference is to the former though.

 

That said, it's very simple. Physical media goes and you cease to own. You lease/rent instead. Just like with those that made DLC, Microtransations, Season Passes etc so lucrative by throwing money at them. Consumers once again are rushing towards a permanent shift in favour of that temporary model via streaming etc with their wallets. Another five years max, and that will be the norm.

[mfnick]

I’ll give it 10 years. I think it’ll still take longer than 5 years to phase out. I do predict the next generation of consoles will be digital

only devices with add on USB drives for physical though which will speed it up. 
 

I still buy the majority of my games physically. They’re just way too expensive to buy digital IMO. Plus the price discrepancy is still way too high. I need the option to sell on to be able to afford them and some games are just plain shit. Paying anything over £40 for a game which may end up being shit and not being able to sell it on to make money back just goes against all logic for me. If it goes all digital I’ll never buy a new game again unless it’s something I’m 100% sure about. For example I’ll get FFVII Rebirth day one no matter what. Same if they did a Panzer Saga remake or anew God of War in the classic style. But anything what’s slightly different or I’m not fully into as in they’re my favourite games ever they’ll get left. So yea, I’ll definitely miss physical.

 

I have started transitioning to digital though for games I love and when they’re in good sales though. Sekiro is a good example. I bought physically because I wasn’t sure about it, fucking adore it, sold my physical copy and bought digitally when it was in sale to “keep”. Doing it that way the net cost was still less than the digital price. The convenience factor but mostly the space issue means I do actually prefer to own games digitally now. & I never thought I’d say that but I’m there now. I do worry about them disappearing one day. Like what happens when MS don’t want anything to do with games anymore? What happens to my library? But I just haven’t got the space or inclination to keep them physically anyway so just got to hope it doesn’t happen in my lifetime. 
 

 

[mmmark]

I can’t see a time when Nintendo will ever be fully digital. There’s just too big of a younger demographic that like looking through and grabbing at game cases.

 

I know Nintendo did release an all digital Wii 10 years ago but that’s a weird curveball that they do from time to time.

 

I like to get physical physical and perusing the sales shelves. Taking a punt on something I know little about. I’d rather grab a case than have to swim through an ocean of icons.

 

Now let me hear your body talk!

[mfnick]

I think Nintendo will just transition into codes in a box so they still have that physical presence but no physical games. 

[Nag]

I've been pretty much fully on board with digital since when Covid fucked everything up and you couldn't rely on anything actually turning up in the post... also helped by Game Pass obviously being all digital.

 

Can't say I miss physical discs all that much either nowadays, I never bought special editions so you literally just got a boring cd with nothing else in the case at all. There's nowhere really close to resell games around here and I don't do Ebay or anything like that so.....

 

Yeah, I probably pay over the odds with game prices but I also don't buy 9 games a month so it's easily doable with what I spend.

 

Thinking about it the only physical media I buy nowadays is books.... fuck digital books.

[HandsomeDead]

I think physical will always be a boutique thing as long as consoles have drives.  Companies like Limited Run have emerged to offer that kind of thing.  It's a case of if the manufacturers will always offer a SKU with a drive.  I feel like there's always market pressure to do so but it's hard to say how long for.