Readers Feature

[one-armed dwarf]

If you didn't notice it, you didn't notice it, but a big part of the 'next gen-ness' of a game like Jak and Daxter compared with Crash Bandicoot was its framerate. You didn't need to speak the language of refresh rates and stuff to notice this.

 

The other part was its draw distance, but the fact that it rendered far distance stuff while also running smooth was what made it feel like a future game.

 

Felt it also comparing games like ISS on PS1 to Pro Evolution Soccer on PS2, the immediate thing you notice is it's much smoother. Everything is more fluid and intricate. In fact iirc a big part of why it could have been popular was I feel like it ran smoother than FIFA at the time, but I'm finding that hard to verify online

[Maf]

10 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

If you didn't notice it, you didn't notice it, but a big part of the 'next gen-ness' of a game like Jak and Daxter compared with Crash Bandicoot was its framerate. You didn't need to speak the language of refresh rates and stuff to notice this.

 

The other part was its draw distance, but the fact that it rendered far distance stuff while also running smooth was what made it feel like a future game.

You’re probably right in it effects the whole experience and made the game better, but I think if you asked most people what the difference is between a PS1 game and a PS2 game they would have just said the most obvious thing which “it looks better” 

 

One of the reasons I loved the GameCube so much was because of how good the games looked. But not because of FPS or draw distance, it was the fact Mario’s dungarees and seams on and that characters had real hands compared to the block things GTA3 characters did

 

I’m not trying to paint every single gamer ever with the same brush, neither can I back up what I say with hard evidence. But my belief is that most people, and I base this on the fact that tech was never talked about or ever shown to be understood  y anyone I know for the my first 25 years of gaming, that the only reason it’s such a big deal today is because now the knowledge is out there and explained very easily with numbers and graphs 

 

It is also affecting people’s enjoyment or observation of games in a real way, which is ultimately good, it‘s always good to know more. But I also think it‘s blown out of proportion a lot of the times as well

[one-armed dwarf]

No, I don't agree with this. I don't think you need to know the technical detail and theory of why a game is running smooth to appreciate its smoothness. You could definitely put a dualshock in someone's hand and have them appreciate how much better PES is to play than ISS. 

 

Is this information and its availability weaponized in weird ways by overly brand loyal twitter dickheads, yeah definitely. But my memory of the early PS2 gen definitely was 'wow, 3D games feel so smooth now'. The motion clarity was mindblowing, much moreso than the static image detail. Even my dad noticed it. 

[mfnick]

Basically everything Dwarf said. Fucker always puts what I’m thinking down so elegantly. Thank you.

[Maf]

No way. I  think most people couldn’t tell the difference even with controller in hand. I don’t most of the people today can tell the difference if you just put a controller in hand and said tell me if it’s 30 or 60.

 

i can’t back it up, but I’m just not a believer 

[one-armed dwarf]

14 minutes ago, Maf said:

No way. I  think most people couldn’t tell the difference even with controller in hand. I don’t most of the people today can tell the difference if you just put a controller in hand and said tell me if it’s 30 or 60.

 

i can’t back it up, but I’m just not a believer 

You're fixating here on the 'no way they can tell the fact that it's 30 and 60', which isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying they can tell the game plays way smoother, is more responsive, can be seen more easily in motion and that they don't need to understand that it's because of framerate that they can appreciate that.

 

I'm saying this cause that's literally how me and my friends felt with our PS2s. I'm talking about motion clarity, not whether the frametime is 33ms or 16ms. It's like you don't need to know the theory to appreciate its implementation

 

(Now tbf, the framerates we are talking about here are probably more like 20fps on ISS and 30fps on PES, but that is a massive uplift all the same. I don't actually know for sure what speeds these games ran at though and can't find out online)

 

edit chatgpt says PES on PS2 ran at 60, but you never know with these AI, could be talking shite. 

[mfnick]

I remember a video on Giantbomb back when the Og crew was there. They did a video on old PS2 games on original hardware. & one of the overriding feelings they had was they couldn’t believe how smooth all the games they were playing were. That’s because the games they were playing were mostly around 60fps whereas this was the time when the One and PS4 were about so the majority of games were 30. They felt that smoothness without knowing the franerate details.

 

Now these aren’t the average gamers. So will know about these things more but I still think it calls out the better feeling and image smoothness higher frame rates provide. That I think most people can appreciate. 

[Maryokutai]

My social bubble never talked about smoothness either, it was all visuals mostly. I have no doubt we noticed that Burnout ran better than NFS, but we couldn't put it into words and every argument that even just remotely went into the technical side of things was purely limited to how good it looks. It's all anecdotal.

 

There was definitively a bigger push towards good PAL games though, because I remember magazines just shitting (figuratively) all over FFX because of how botched that PAL release was. If it had been common at that time there wouldn't have been such a negative outcry for this particular release. Funnily enough by the end of that generation we sometimes got the 'PAL60' games not every TV supported, which was its own tiny controversy.

 

Looking back at the whole 'noticing stuff', I'm pretty sure that Mass Effect 1 was the first time I ever thought 'this runs absolutely awful'*. The whole Bayonetta fiasco with its shitty PS3 port was probably the point at which I started to properly understand what was really going on, because there were a lot of comparisons at the time and it might even have been around then and there that DF started doing their thing.

 

(Random sidenote, but shoutouts to Driver: San Francisco for being a fun, open world game running at 60fps on PS360. I just kept thinking about this while writing and didn't find a way to fit it into the post.)

 

*Edit: scratch that. Now that Driver entered my mind, Driver 2 was the first time I noticed god-awful performance. Jesus Christ that game ran so badly. But it really took extreme cases like this for my friend group to talk about it back in the day.

[Maf]

32 minutes ago, Maf said:

You’re probably right in it effects the whole experience and made the game better, but I think if you asked most people what the difference is between a PS1 game and a PS2 game they would have just said the most obvious thing which “it looks better” 

I’m saying 30/60, but I’m referencing basic observation of game’s smoothness and stuff here where I think if you asked people the difference between PS1/PS2 gen they would have just said it looked better, not talking about smoothness, clarity, etc. The only tech talk I heard all those years was people talking about how “realistic” games looked. And for me that’s as close as it got.  

 

I mean, just in general most people (not gamers) just general people don’t know the difference between 4K TVs and OLEDS and stuff like that. So I really don’t think motion or smoothness would be what people talk about when asked about a game’s visuals. I think more general mass audiences it’s not a noticeable thing 

 

Which is me coming back to it’s a knowledge/education thing. When learning of it and seeing multiple examples, it will affect people’s opinion or awareness of a game’s performance. Which is why the rise of discussion in gamer circles has risen in direct line with DF’s influence and popularity

 

But most people out there who own a PlayStation aren’t clued in to gamer culture discussions, or sitting down and watching DF. And those people are getting on fine with their 30fps modes. And if you give them the 60fps modes they wouldn’t know the difference. In fact I showed this to my friend when I got my PS5 with Spider-Man and it was clear to me by he’s reaction he didn’t see it at all.  
 

I also think there’s a big thing in game graphics about going backwards. Like experiencing high end performance and then going back down performance stands out more, another thing I think has made people more aware of game performance today because of all the 60fps modes, but that’s a tangent I don’t have time to expand on right now 
 

I’m not trying to say your experience is wrong @one-armed dwarf If that’s what you and your friends talked about then maybe that’s what most people and their friends noticed. All I can say is growing up every kid I knew owned a console, and I never remember anyone talking about the smoothness or anything, even in basic terms. And the way conversations go online, even on the previous page with the game dev, I still believe largely people don’t understand/can tell the difference, even if you put a controller in hand and said tell me what you think. 

[mfnick]

Yea but “normal” people don’t notice the soap opera effect so their opinion doesn’t count in this conversation  😉

[one-armed dwarf]

Isn't it the opposite, they think it looks way better

 

In fact, don't you play with that shit turned on? Huh!?

[HandsomeDead]

I don't think anyone is wrong really.  There was a DF video on the Gran Turismo series a while back and it did remind me of the "Hi-Rez" mode on either GT or GT2 where they took one track and toned down the detail so it could run at 60fps.  I definitely noticed the smoothness at the time but it was presented as a tech demo, though I do remember thinking it would be cool if the whole game felt like that.

 

Later games on the PS2 they would start to prioritise 60fps more because it was a way to get your game to feel more "next gen" and while it may have not have been the thing people were talking about I think it was to those making games.  I wonder if you're all half right because maybe that's why there was less of a priority for 60fps in the 360 era because they felt the audience didn't notice it, talk about it, or have the language to talk about it.

[Maryokutai]

Reminds me a school friend/acquaintance who was always trying to be the cool guy, and at some point bought an Xbox360 and an HDTV. I went to his home a couple of months later and noticed he had the output resolution on 480p. So I switched it over to (then impressive) 720p to show him the improvement and he shrugged and said 'yeah, I know, I just don't care'. Still makes me chuckle.

[one-armed dwarf]

Watched a bit of Driver 2 to remember. I definitely don't remember the chopiness as such but the really disappointing 'get out of the car' gameplay was like, whats the point. But on the other hand it enabled you to change your vehicle, which was a massive deal

 

For as forgotten as this game is now, it's directly responsible for me not giving much of a shit about GTA3 cause it felt like it had already been done. Except GTA3 did it smoother lol, and the on foot gameplay actually felt solid.

[mfnick]

40 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

fact, don't you play with that shit turned on? Huh!?

Yep. I can’t tell the difference 😂😂

[Nag]

I'm speechless... truly. 

[mfnick]

Can’t explain it. But 30fps - I can see every frame hitching across the screen. Soap opera effect - nope. Mostly oblivious to it. 
Actually I can tell a bit of a difference but I much prefer it to stutter & get used to it almost immediately. 

[radiofloyd]

I’m more with Maf, I remember playing Jak and Daxter for the first time and thinking “wow this looks amazing”. Also I had no idea FFX was even a “botched port” so that stuff wasn’t even on my mind.

 

That being said, I pay very little to performance or frame rate unless it’s a huge issue.

[Nag]

I have no idea what the settings that produce "soap opera" effect do to video games but for TV and film they're fucking unbearable... it looks completely false.

[DANGERMAN]

I'm late to replying to this, but as an old fucker (that's almost all of us, I'm just being polite), I remember the likes of Virtua Racing and Stunt Race FX coming out and he frame rate being talked about loads. Basically, that for as cool as they were they weren't great to play. It was definitely something talked about with the N64, and as @HandsomeDeadmentioned Digital Foundry, I'm pretty sure they've talked before about the Daytona Saturn port.

 

It was less of an issue when there were fewer examples of slower framerates, but we used to talk about slow down, so it is true we didn't have the terminology we do now 

 

Also mentioning Digital Foundry, they must be getting on for 20 years old now right, if they started around the launch of the 360? So, even if you credit them with it becoming a thing, that's still a long time ago