Marvel Cinematic Universe

[HandsomeDead]

X-Men and Spider-Man are brought up a lot as the genesis of current Marvel but this was a pretty big deal at the time

 

 

I've not seen these films since the early 2000s and I'm gonna go back to them one day

[OCH]

It boiled down to they only used to put the effort into popular character films. Technically Blade bucked that trend. Well, the first one, at least. By the third film, even Snipes couldn't be bothered. Nice timing @HandsomeDead

 

Also that most studios, even today, turn their noses up at comic book films. Just churning out anything with the name, thinking it will sell (points to early 2000's Daredevil, Elektra and Catwoman) which also became the fate of the popular films too. The curse of film three, used to prominently exist. It kind of still does too.

[mfnick]

Oh yea, Blade 1&2 are/were fantastic. Fucking loved those films. 

[OCH]

True. I caught the third film on TV not too long ago. I'd actually forgotten just how bad it was. Also forgotten how long ago Ryan Reynolds started using the prototype-Deadpool character.

[one-armed dwarf]

My problem is the films feel too similar. I know my opinion matters less in the comic thread, cause apparently I hate everything Marvel or something. But actually I'm having a really good time with the Guardians of the Galaxy game. Which is why I keep bringing it up, I think it's going to be a very overlooked game this year. Partly cause of MCU fatigue and also the previous square enix game. 

 

So maybe those older Sam Raimi films might be lower quality or whatever, I mean I don't think they are but generally people seem to think that. But I felt like a lot of these older films were distinct and could have at least a different flavour to each other. A lot of these current films feel the same flavour of vanilla, maybe some of them with a bit of raspberry swirl. I also think dismissing a lot of the older films as being shit is a bit revisionist imo. 1989 Batman is good, I saw that film 30 years after it came out. 

 

That's what it really comes down to for me anyway. GotG is cool mostly because it is a video game and that forces a different approach, even if it's full of MCU-isms. I guess a lot of those older films were mostly origin stories but man at least the colour grading was different between each film, you know?

[OCH]

The MCU formula is definitely a thing. Even down to things like personality types being virtually identical. Which I think is the biggest factor in causing said fatigue.

I have also noticed people online like to hate on the X-Men and Spider-Man films of the early 2000's. Which is either revisionist or ignorance from those without appreciation for the context. X-Men was the first successful superhero team movie. Ever. Spider-Man was even more successful than that. But they didn't feel like the same film.

[Maryokutai]

People are probably hating on those now because they can't differentiate between director and movie. Singer or not, X-Men 2 is a great superhero movie and quite a lot better than most current MCU stuff. It has a very comfortable pace, it doesn't conclude with a big CGI fight, it tackles some of the classic X-Men issues rather well. Sure, it's a movie from the early 2000s and some stuff might look or feel a bit cheesy but that's just unavoidable.

 

I also miss these more unique approaches to these movie. I think that's one aspect where Marvel could learn a bit from the DCU. Sure, they lack the consistent "quality" of the MCU movies, but there's at least a noticeable change in style and direction between something like Man of Steel, WW or Shazam. 

[mfnick]

Come on, the X Mem films were not good. I even watched those when I was younger and more willing to overlook crap & thought they were boring then. 
Batman I can’t really speak on as I’ve never been a fan as I said. The Nolan films were good though. 
Oh I also really liked Man of Steel too. But most people hate that…
 

I agree with most other points though. Especially the formulaic nature of the characters. Still, I’m enjoying them a lot so keep them going as far as I’m concerned. For now at least. 
 

[OCH]

2 hours ago, mfnick said:

Come on, the X Men films were not good.

There are only two X-Men films that are not good - X3 (ironically the most MCU-like) and Wolverine: Origins, which is just horrible. The main problem with the 2000's series was it boiled down to "Wolverine and Friends", which isn't what X-Men is. In spite of what Wolverine fanboys say. I was watching something not too long ago that pegged X-Men: First Class as the best X-Men film to date. Because it was an ensemble story. X-Men is the name of a team, not a headliner.

 

2 hours ago, mfnick said:

Oh I also really liked Man of Steel too. But most people hate that…

You say that, for reasons I don't understand, my brother considers Batman vs Superman one of the best comic book films ever made...🤷‍♂️

 

2 hours ago, Maryokutai said:

but there's at least a noticeable change in style and direction between something like Man of Steel, WW or Shazam. 

Exactly. They've gone for safe choices and generic story beats. Now compare Logan to Deadpool, and they too are worlds apart. In execution, tone etc

Even down to characters, like Maf and I were saying in the DC film thread, Suicide Squad has Starro the conqueror - A giant alien starfish. Shazam introduced Mister Mind - An evil worm from Venus. MCU has yet to push that envelope into Full comic book absurdity. They made Ego The Living Planet, a guy for 99% of his only film. They haven't even used a single Super Villain team yet. Wherein the Avengers alone, have three main antagonist groups. Not just goon squads like Hydra and AIM.

[Maf]

@OCH as much as comic readers like us want to see comic things adapted to the big screen the way we know them, this is not what the rest of the people here or the larger cinema audience care about. The ratio of comic book movie fans to comic book fans is like a 10,000:1 and they have no interest in the source material. At best they might read a wiki to seem knowledgeable or have some understanding, but generally they don’t give a shit.

 

The guys in this thread aren’t talking about safe choices in terms of characters and interpretations they’re talking safe choices made in direction, style and tone in 4 quadrant, focus tested, family films lol. Which is like going in to McDonalds and complaining that the cheese burgers aren’t spicy or different enough from each other, honestly. If these movies are too safe, then watch other movies lol. You are looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place. If you don’t like it, then go somewhere else. Complaining about the rain being wet is a waste of time.

 

In terms of the MCU not being comic book enough, well they spent 8 years building to a big purple man who took magic stones from the universe killed half of it by saying he is inevitable and a thunder god, a WW2 soldier and a knight in shining armour saved the day.

 

I mean, I think in terms of fantasy they’re doing ok. Even if it isn’t quite how it was originally told. 

[one-armed dwarf]

13 minutes ago, Maf said:

If these movies are too safe, then watch other movies lol.

Part of the issue is that Disney franchise films are devouring the market for lots of other films to be be made. It's more akin to Starbucks than Macdonalds. Otherwise it would be easier to ignore

 

But you're not wrong either, watch other films. But someone bumped the thread with this argument again so anyway I post wot I think. 

[Maf]

I think it only seems like that because they’re the most popular. But I just googled this and can’t find a comic book movie on the first page

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=recent+movie+releases&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB803GB803&oq=recent+movi&aqs=chrome.1.0i433i512j0i131i433i512j0i433i512j69i57j0i512l2.3433j0j7&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#wxpd=browse:true

 

Seems like there’s plenty of option to me

[OCH]

9 minutes ago, Maf said:

The guys in this thread aren’t talking about safe choices in terms of characters and interpretations they’re talking safe choices made in direction, style and tone in 4 quadrant, focus tested, family films lol.

As was I. The examples I gave are films from the same studio (Logan and Deadpool) that you wouldn't know are from the same studio, because nothing about them is the same. Unlike the MCU. Logan is an award winning film and all that. Not because of how closely it follows source material. 

 

Nor was I complaining. The point is, the MCU is going to hit a wall soon. They now have access to the Fantastic Four and X-Men. These properties open the flood gates of Marvel's complete toybox. Everyone from Galactus to Factor Three. If they don't push the envelope, as they will have the creative freedom to do so, the fanbase will tire and go elsewhere. Let alone anyone else. 

 

Personally I don't give a shit about how closely a film follows source material. People that do are oblivious as to what an "adaptation" is. But now that Disney owns 95% of the Marvel Universe, and are currently the dominant force in comic book movies. They will soon discover the same mold won't fit all of it. It isn't like Star Wars. Some characters are tonally lightyears apart from Captain America and the Avengers...

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

[one-armed dwarf]

4 minutes ago, Maf said:

I think it only seems like that because they’re the most popular. But I just googled this and can’t find a comic book movie on the first page

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=recent+movie+releases&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB803GB803&oq=recent+movi&aqs=chrome.1.0i433i512j0i131i433i512j0i433i512j69i57j0i512l2.3433j0j7&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#wxpd=browse:true

 

Seems like there’s plenty of option to me

You might find that filmmakers had other challenges this year than MCU

 

But thanks for reminding me about Malignant, the RLM review made that look like pretty fun viewing lmao

[Maf]

What are you talking about. How are you going to say Disney cannibalise. Be presented with 14,000 recent movies. And go “Filmmakers had different challenges” what is even the point there. 

[one-armed dwarf]

14 minutes ago, Maf said:

What are you talking about. How are you going to say Disney cannibalise. Be presented with 14,000 recent movies. And go “Filmmakers had different challenges” what is even the point there. 

How many of those films are cinema releases? Do you know why people aren't going to the cinema right now? Different challenges, hardly needs to be articulated surely. Even Disney are struggling to get films out this year.

 

The context of this discussion changes utterly post 2019. The entire industry has been in a coma and lower budget productions are working in this niche.

 

Unfortunately lower budget productions can cut corners,eg on safety like with the Baldwin incident but this is a tangential point

 

 

 

to be clear, low budget =/= bad. I will recommend to you all a very good low budget horror for Halloween, Lake Mungo. Proper creepy shit

[Maf]

I agree and understand but what does Covid, cost and closed cinemas have to do with 

 

21 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

Part of the issue is that Disney franchise films are devouring the market for lots of other films to be be made. It's more akin to Starbucks than Macdonalds. Otherwise it would be easier to ignore

When there have still been tonnes of movies to watch, just not at the cinema because they were closed.
 

If you want to talk about how cinema changed over 10-15 years before Covid with the rise of the billion dollar film and every big movie trying to make that money, pushing smaller films out. Yeah, Disney is a big part of that. But so is Fast and the Furious, James Bond, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc. Cinema and business models changed, but so did the places to watch movies. You can’t move for streaming shit.

 

If you’re mad you can’t watch arthouse stuff on the big screen, then you got to blame the whole model. It isn’t just one company (And still Oscar movies and more low key stuff still got released just not as many screens)

Finally, it’s democratic, the reason big movies became the only thing to watch is because they were the only things people were going to watch. Can’t blame cinemas for not showing movies if people won’t watch them.
 

Imo streaming services saved smaller movies. Because of it weren’t for Netflix they wouldn’t be around full stop. There wouldn’t be some fucking charity screen in your cinema for them. They would just be gone. 

 

So you have to blame the business, the model and all parties involved. Can’t be like ahh Disney, just because they’re the biggest.

 

Post Covid, Disney and FF is keeping these cinema chains alive. They’re the biggest game in town and if it weren’t for them you wouldn’t have a cinema to go too. Bond can’t sell a ticket, Suicide Squad can’t sell a ticket, etc. Although looks like Dune is doing relatively well. So let’s blame that movie for all the other movies get shit on bah the new enemy.

[one-armed dwarf]

You say it's democratic, I don't think that's an unfair point. But I think it's a point that can't be proven, it's equally possible that it's a chicken and egg situation. Yes other companies than Disney are involved, but Disney are the biggest. When you have as much IPs under your control as Disney it puts you in a pretty powerful position to control the diet of audiences and make it harder to test their appetite for different stuff.

 

I think I'm not really disagreeing with anything you're saying. I just think the sad thing here is that streaming is the bastion of 'different' types of films. Not even arthouse a lot of the time. But on the subject of Dune, obviously I'm glad that has done great cause after Bladerunner I expected it to flop. But people insist on the cinema experience for a film like Dune, and the sadness is that a lot of films don't have the opportunity anymore to get a cinema audience. 

 

(And cinema audience is not just a pretentious aesthetic, it's tangible box office returns)

 

Where I disagree as said already is the idea that there's not an audience of people who will go to the cinema for these films that aren't franchise tentpole releases. I think you can't claim that, I think you're wrong also that Disney and Franchises are saving cinemas. But I can't prove that either. 

[DisturbedSwan]

Mobius Trailer:

 

 

Also, even though I loved them at the time (particularly SM1 & SM2) the mid-late 2000s Marvel films were mostly shite in my view. A lot of them don't hold up today, I tried watching SM2 around Xmas last year and the CGI is just distracting bad now. I remember watching X-Men: Origins - Wolverine and I almost walked out it was so bad, likewise with X-Men 3. I have never revisited Blade though recently, I remembering loving those too but I've never seen the (apparently) awful third movie.

 

I would go so far as to say almost every non-Marvel Studios production since around 2005 has been pretty shite, just look at this track record:

 

20th Century Fox (now Studios):

• X-Men Origins: Wolverine - Shite
• X-Men: First Class - Good
• The Wolverine - Shite
• X-Men: Days of Future Past - Good
• X-Men Apocalypse - Shite
• Logan - Amazing
• Dark Phoenix - Shite
• The New Mutants - Shite
• Fantastic Four (2015) - Shite
• Deadpool - Amazing
• Deadpool 2 - Good
• Fantastic Four (2005) - Shite
• Fantastic Four (2007) - Shite
• Daredevil - Shite
• Elektra - Shite

Sony:

• Amazing Spider-Man - Decent
• Amazing Spider-Man 2 - Shite

There's a few good movies in there don't get me wrong including the amazing Logan but there is such a huge about of shite it's difficult to find the sweetcorn. The cream rises to the top, Marvel Studios knows their own characters better than anyone which is why the 'formula' works so well. You would never of had a huge tentpole event like Endgame was if Sony/20thC/Universal or anyone else had still been at the forefront. Iron-Man was such a monumental achievement in 2007 that it changed the game. 

 

I used to turn my nose up at the MCU and Marvel films in general around the 2007-2012 mark, I never saw the likes of Iron-Man, Captain America, Thor etc. in cinemas, I only saw them months/years later when I received them through the post from Lovefilm (remember them?), I don't think I actually saw one in the cinema on Day 1 (like I do now) until Thor 2 or sometime around then. 

[Maryokutai]

On 31/10/2021 at 12:22, Maf said:

The guys in this thread aren’t talking about safe choices in terms of characters and interpretations they’re talking safe choices made in direction, style and tone in 4 quadrant, focus tested, family films lol. Which is like going in to McDonalds and complaining that the cheese burgers aren’t spicy or different enough from each other, honestly. If these movies are too safe, then watch other movies lol.

 

The thing is McDonald's has more than just burgers. They also have fries, they have these chicken things, they probably have some other potentially poisonous stuff I'd never eat.

 

With Marvel every movie is a cheeseburger. Maybe Infinity War and Endgame were BigMacs, but they were still burgers.

 

I think the reaosn why Winter Soldier is my favouriute MCU movie despite featuring my least favourite MCU characters is because it feels genuinely unique, it's a bundle of fries among burgers. It's a proper thriller at times, it feels like there's something at stake, it has the only interesting villain in the MCU next to Thanos (who got retconned to be boring in Endgame) etc.

 

It's that kind of diversity some people are looking for. We don't need the MCU to produce the next Citizen Kane or go super experimental but there's potential there to be more than just test audience pleasers.