Hardcore = Graphic Whore

[DANGERMAN]

I know a few people here listen to the listen-up podcast, I've mixed feelings about it but that's for another day. One of the forum entries they read out made a good point, or at least I think so, that the hardcore games of our youth have become casual games, where as the graphics whore we used to all bitch about have now positioned themselves as being the hardcore.

I've not explained that too well, but he used the examples of things like Plants vs Zombies, Zuma, Peggle, erm, probably some iphone stuff I cant remember. These are the things that are ignored or dismissed by the kind of people who consider themselves 'hardcore'. They're simplistic, tough, but fun, exactly like the 'hardcore' games of our youth.

His basic point is that the true hardcore play whatever is fun, and I agree. I know I bring this up whenever this subject crops up, but the old example of DS-Wiifi favourite Cooking Mama. When we all picked it up it was a cool quirky outsider game, but by the time it came out in Blighty it was a gaming pariah. The other perma-mentioned game of the forum, Sonic & the Secret Rings was the same, most people didn't give a shit and dismissed it as a kids game, but those of us that played it will testify to it being a genuine challenge that rewarded perseverance.

Certainly the hardest games I've played these past few years have been the smallest in scale and concept (e.g. Space Invaders Extreme). I'm not sure the difficulty was something the poster was getting at, but I think it's a factor.

As an example of the 'graphics whore' leading the market, take Street Fighter. SF4 sold brilliantly and now everyone's talking about fighters again. Of course it helps that it's an awesome game, but so was King of Fighters 11 and no one gave two shits, so is Garou and again no one cares. How well did Virtua Fighter 5 sell compared to Soul Calibur 4, Metroid 3 compared to Halo 3 (btw I'm not suggesting one game is better than the other, im deliberately picking good games)

If I was being really controversial I'd take a look at the opposite side for an example. Pick 3 games, Crysis, Gears of War, and Uncharted, all of which are nice looking games and all considered 'hardcore'. I played through Crysis and completed it on normal, I died a lot but I inched my way through without any real problems bar tedium. Held my own at Gears of War, and pissed all over Uncharted. None of these games are especially difficult so what exactly makes them hardcore? Again I'm not dissing them, just wondering why one type of game is superior [sic] to another when seemingly the only thing it does better than everything else is graphics?

So yeah, in short, the true 'hardcore', if there is such a thing, will play the best games, regardless of what they look like or their budget

[HandsomeDead]

I see what you're saying and I totally agree. This 'hardcore' you are refering to that dismiss what on first impressions look like 'casual' games are people that I would consider hardcore at all, I don't want to use that term in this explanation put surely if you have a interest in games you want to see different gameplay ideas and some of these concepts are simple but it doesn't make them less entertaining or even interesting. These people just want to see the same genres regurgatated over and over and I think it's just as unhealthy as - if not more than - the current trend in 'casual' games.

[Bob]

I think it's the hard part of hardcore that causes all these debates. I have no problem with being lumped into categories, it makes life easier but hardcore implies just that, someone who is proper hardcore. Someone who only plays games designed to make your brain bleed with rage. I know it's meant to mean people who play games aimed at gamers but if you said someone was a hardcore metal fan you wouldn't expect them to listen to anything but the heaviest, most brutal metal and I imagine people looking into the games industry think of teenage, nerdy, elitist pricks when someone says hardcore gamer.

I much prefer the term core gamer. It doesn't say, "hey, I'm elitist, I only play games that look super awesome or games no one has heard of!" It says, "hey guy, I love games and I want to see them advance as a form of entertainment dude. I will use my super gaming knowledge to decide what is worthy of my time and what I enjoy. Now come here and give me a hug." Or something along those lines.

[TopGunKnacker]

i dont think you can generalise so much really, hardcore will be something different to many groups of people who call themselves 'hardcore'. for some people it may be cutting edge graphics or mechanics that classify these games, for some it will be the 'adult' orientated themes of shooting action, for some it will be difficulty, for some it may be playing cult games and niche genres or consoles/platforms, and for some it will be playing retro games or 2d games. some may just attribute their hardcoreness to the amount of money/time they invest in their gaming habit. and more besides i imagine, but of the ones i can think of, ive certainly met all those people

[Hendo]

I've not explained that too well, but he used the examples of things like Plants vs Zombies, Zuma, Peggle, erm, probably some iphone stuff I cant remember. These are the things that are ignored or dismissed by the kind of people who consider themselves 'hardcore'. They're simplistic, tough, but fun, exactly like the 'hardcore' games of our youth.

That wasn't entirely what I took from that, I'd have to go and listen back to it but I thought he was using those examples of casual games that are "ok" by the hardcore, but similarly simple games are dismissed when there's no difference? Either way, I agree with what the guy was saying, but like Mr McCornish, there's misinterpretations of the term "hardcore".

I had an argument with a guy on GTM ages ago because he said that there was no such thing as hardcore gamers and that the term implied snobs, where I tried pointing out that to me it meant that you played a lot of games, you knew your stuff, etc.

Not that you were better at games than anyone else, but much like you get casual film fans and then you get wiivo. You get casual football fans and then there's the people that can reel off who played who on what year in which stadium.

A hardcore gamer is someone who is on gaming forums a lot, knows when games are coming out, knows the names of people who make games.

But going back to what the guy was saying on 1up, I completely agree - the games when we were kids were much harder, much simpler and were much more like the games you get on flash sites or on the iPhone. They had to be hard because there wasn't much room for a big game. Now that games are massive but much easier to get through, which is a great thing in my opinion (that they're easier to play, that is). It's much like music, where you get a lot of people who call themselves music fans but they basically only listen to one style of music.

The Cooking Mama example, the way I came from on that was that it was a brilliant quirky game with limited appeal after the first couple of days and then the sequel came out which was pretty much the same game so I had no interest.

[HandsomeDead]

I think a game like Cooking Mama lost it's niche appeal when it became incredibly popular, arguably a similar thing may happen to Profeser Layton, you rarely see any interest in the sequel to that too.

'Hardcore' is a tenious label anyway, I see it's meaning but it can be interpreted in alot of different ways, I suppose it can mean all of them but it does come across as elitist and unneeded.

[TopGunKnacker]

oh aye, its a bit playground

[DANGERMAN]

For what it's worth I'm not arguing any one type is a hardcore gamer (hence the speech marks). I think in an ideal world the person who'll play anything is the hardcore gamer, but I'm not sure that's true purely because they dont play anything to an excessive level.

As a kid I went with Badgers example, that the guy who spent all day in the arcade playing Street Fighter 2 was a hardcore gamer. I certainly didnt consider myself one and my gaming tastes have barely changed since i was a kid, and looking back I liked a lot of good stuff. The problem with the type who plays one thing relentlessly isn't their hardcore status, but how much they are gamers. I know people who play Pro Evo religiously, they're quite possibly good enough to play in a tournament, but they dont touch any other games. WoW fans, people who play nothing but Halo, or Street Fighter or whatever, really they're more 'hardcore ____ players'

Hendo said

A hardcore gamer is someone who is on gaming forums a lot, knows when games are coming out, knows the names of people who make games

Y'see that describes me, and I dont consider myself hardcore, I've even got the snobby elitism down and still I dont see myself that way. I play more than my friends (bar Spatular), but it's more a pastime, instead of watching tv and reading Heat, I play games and read Gaf. Is manicm a hardcore cyclist or is it just his hobby (that could be a bad example )?

I kind of agree with that guy on gtm if anything (though not completely). I've always thought the telling thing about people who call themselves hardcore is that they never really are, yet everyone can make a claim to it

[TopGunKnacker]

the funny thing is, when i described all those different takes on being 'hardcore', i read it back and they all apply to me in one way or another! and to a lot of people on this forum i imagine. not that i subscribe to any of them completely, gfx arent the be all and end all, 2d isnt the be all and end all i just like all those things, am proud of my collection and gamerscore etc. id say i was more of an avid enthusiast or a buff, 'games mad', kind of in the same way youd describe someone who really likes films or something. you wouldnt call them a hardcore film fan really, its certainly a phrase ive never used or heard of, but theres people who like and watch films as much as i do games. now i think about it, calling yourself hardcore just seems like a smug way of saying i know more about games than you. which may in an instance be true, but its a silly way of putting it

[spatular]

i'm not really up to date on the definition of a hardcore gamer, although there isn't really a set definition, personally i'd describe uncharted and gears of war as more "mainstream" games? but then i probably shouldn't be categorising stuff like that either. maybe crisis was described as "hardcore" but just because you had to be big into pc's to have one good enough to run it? - when it came out anyway.

regarding fighters i don't play them much so don't really have much of an opinion on that (although maybe that's why only the ones with big hype do well, personally i bought streetfighter 4, enjoyed it for a bit then traded it in, i have no interest in buying another fighting game at the moment, i'm not saying they aren't any good, they're just not for me), but i feel similar pain when it comes to shooters, geometry wars is hailed as the second coming (and don't get me wrong, it is brilliant) but lots of other equally good games don't even get released in this country, which shows the lack of interest/hype in them - practically non existent, which maybe raises another point, people who are into 2d shooters are sort of forced to become "hardcore" just to play the games they like, as they are mostly only available imported.

i wouldn't say i was "hardcore" presonally but maybe i could be considered that way for how much i play halo? but i'm not that good at it and really just play for the social aspect, if my friends didn't play i would play a lot less if at all, so does that still count?

i've completely missed Ben's point about the graphics, but i don't really have an opinion on that so not sure why i bothered replying, sorry. i do like TGK's 'games mad' thing though, that's much better than hardcore

[Dunkster]

I've no excuse not to join in here - after all, I'm a long established hardcore whore!!

[Craymen Edge]

I could see the argument most so called casual games are just retouched versions of old "hardcore" pure gameplay games, but listening to it I thought he was being too dismissive of people who want different experiences. The graphics argument was nonsense though, it's nothing new. Ever since I've been gaming the graphics have been a big thing, they were always talking about them in c64/Spectrum/Amstrad magazines.

Lots of people grew up playing the simpler games on early consoles, the 8 bit home computers, arcades etc. but might not want to play those games as much anymore. It doesn't necessarily make you shallow or a graphics whore or a game snob. People grow and change, their tastes change, and might not want to play those stripped down games any more, better graphics, storyline etc. but just be what they need in order to maintain an interest in gaming.

Hardcore gaming is about your level of interest and knowledge about what you play. Not the style of games you play.

[Sambob]

I think that as the industry and its fans have grown, the way we refer to it doesnt seem to have.

For example, you wouldnt say 'i know this guy, he is a hardcore music fan' because it just doesnt really make sense.

I think there needs to be a more mature look at how people play games, and enjoy them, the games industry is too big now for people that play games to realistically be this 'hardcore' stereotype.

[DANGERMAN]

i've completely missed Ben's point about the graphics, but i don't really have an opinion on that so not sure why i bothered replying, sorry. i

Just to clarify, it's not my point, it's someone off the 1up forum I think

Lots of people grew up playing the simpler games on early consoles, the 8 bit home computers, arcades etc. but might not want to play those games as much anymore. It doesn't necessarily make you shallow or a graphics whore or a game snob. People grow and change, their tastes change, and might not want to play those stripped down games any more, better graphics, storyline etc. but just be what they need in order to maintain an interest in gaming.

There's a difference though between playing a game with good graphics, and refusing to play one with bad, and for me that's where the snobbishness comes in. Take shia lebouf's (sp?) comments about the wii recently, or browse any large gaming forum. I hate the phrase 'wasted on the wii', because I've yet to play a game that is

Although for what it's worth graphics are generally indicative of care nowadays, it's not too often a big budget game fails to deliver, I'm not sure that was the same when we were kids. (that said beyond Altered Beast and Mortal Kombat I cant think of too many examples)

[Sambob]

I think that if I was being picky, and honest, then I can think of a few Wii games where ive wished it looked better. Whilst this hasnt stopped me playing that game, or made me think it was broken, its just something you notice as a very slight downer on what would otherwise be an amazing game.

Like it or not there are games released on the 360 or PS3 that just look amazing, utterly gorgeous, and once that goes in, it stays in. I remember the first time a played high definition gaming and then going back to non high def, its impossible not to at the very least take in the difference there.

[spatular]

Just to clarify, it's not my point, it's someone off the 1up forum I think

yeah good point, i should have said the point of the thread or something like that would have been clearer.

despite not really believing in the hardcore term, i used it a lot in my reply

[Hendo]

Hardcore gaming is about your level of interest and knowledge about what you play. Not the style of games you play.

Yes, exactly! It's not about being better than anyone or believing you're superior (quite the opposite really), it's about acknowledging that there is a difference between someone who walks into GAME only to get ripped off because they don't know what they're looking for and someone who has to tell the guy behind the counter what should be out and when.

Saying that there's no such thing as hardcore is ridiculous, you might as well go the whole hog and say we're not gonna distinguish between genres because hey, they're all just games.

If the word "hardcore" makes you wince, then fair enough, replace it with "enthusiast" or something but to say that all gamers have the same level of interest (or obsession) is absurd. The same way that you'd say you were a fan of Michael Jackson's music, and then quickly make sure people know you're not one of those crazies with the doves and shit.

[TopGunKnacker]

but to say that all gamers have the same level of interest (or obsession) is absurd.

i dont think anyones implying that

[Hendo]

What I referenced before, arguing with someone on another forum, that's what he said - that there's no difference between levels of interest or investment in gaming. Like, bollocks.

[HandsomeDead]

I think I was misinterprating the term hardcore. It's just that when you hear self-proclaimed hardcore gamers talk about games you get the sense they sneer at casual games or even the dumbing down of games (I get the impression anyway) not taking in the fact that games are appealing far beyond the likes that grace gaming message boards. Maybe these people should be renamed, like bell-ends or something.

I now understand what hardcore gamer is but it does still makes you sound like a cock, I call for TGK's games mad term to replace it, it's got a boystrous vibe to it.