wholehole Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Hmmmm I dunno about that. They don't at any point go overboard describing anything in a positive ligh or gush about the game. Tina even says she preferred the Star Wars console. They say it's nice stuff because it is in fact nice stuff. PR guys have a job to do, to get knowledge of the product out to the public. With budgets tight all over, this sort of thing is relatively cheap compared to TV or other avenues, I don't think there's anything inherently shady about it or anyone is being manipulated into doing their bidding. It's obvious to everyone involved when we're being sold something, no one is pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. I'm sure Totillo knew exactly why they'd been sent all that stuff and did what any news site would've done with it. These sites show it to us because that's their job, and we watch it because we're interested in games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 it doesn't matter if they thought the Star Wars one was a bit nicer or not, Microsoft got a nice little infomercial, some coverage of Halo 4, for the cost of a console. It's not the greatest crime in the world, it shouldn't be that easy but you can totally see why Kotaku would do it. But to do it and deny that there's a problem with the closeness of PR and the press is at best burying your head, it's insidious The editor of Kotaku knowing he's been coerced into promoting something for cheap pr and page hits doesn't really make it ok imo. I'm glad you think the console is nice though, you thought about ordering one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Jesus, Totillo might as well hold up his hands and say, "it's a fair cop, guvnor". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Reflex Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm in agreement with Ben here. What would you do if the games companies started trying to butter you up with free stuff for Bitparade Ben? Would you look upon it favourably or wouldn't that pass you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 We had a situation once where we were sent a couple of games to review, they were fighting/arcade collections which is the sort of stuff that used to get sent to me. Unfortunately they were on the psp, I don't have a psp so would have had to lend one, and for some unknown reason we were only given about 4 days to review both games. Riva (who ran/runs the site) ended up reviewing them, I read his reviews and they were fine, I suspect they'd have had more detail if he'd had longer to play them but he wasn't unduly harsh, I think he gave at least one of them a 6 if memory serves. The pr contacted him and complained about the reviews, I'm not entirely sure what the problem was but we never got another game off them again. In fact with the next game they claimed they'd sent it and it was signed for by Riva, but he never received it. Make of that what you will As for free gifts, I don't think I got any aside from games. I'll be honest I doubt I'd have turned them down, although it depends if/what you were asked to do for them (or I'd like to think). Let's say for example that in the scenario above that publisher had sent me a psp to play those games, I'd have happily kept it and probably posted here all I'd like to think I wouldn't have my opinions swayed, certainly not enough to alter a score, but it's not that simple. We used to get embargoes saying what we could/couldn't talk about in a review, when we could post reviews, and even when we were allowed to play it online. More often than not by the time we'd played the games enough to review the embargoes were up. But in amongst that I got sent 3D Dot Game Heroes. It arrived probably a month before the US release, and due to the quirks of regional publishing a full 9 months before the UK release. The game came in a blank cardboard sleeve (iirc, who has the game at the minute btw? DC?) and came with some PR documentation. Rather than the usual stuff about what we couldn't do it encouraged us to post screen shots, post the review whenever we wanted, do as much video as we wanted (it's not that long ago but pr/publishers didn't like you doing video of their games). I ended up contacting the PR rep to ask if he wanted us to hold the review for the UK launch, he said to post it whenever we wanted. I ended up writing a small follow up piece linking to the review and video stuff during the week of the UK release because I felt a bit bad that they weren't getting coverage (because everyone had already reviewed it). Basically for whatever reason I was rooting for the game, my review wasn't massively complimentary, the game's got problems, but I wanted it to do well, and part of that is because I went in to it positively I was talking to Spatular about this the other day, and the time I got Street Fighter 4 early (Capcom had never sent us anything before). It was a nice surprise, I was excited by it, you lot might be better placed to decide if I was caught up in that. I will admit though that in my review I said that I thought it was accessible, after it came out people here complained about how difficult they were finding it, I was wrong. Was that because I was seduced or was it because I played a lot of fighting games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craymen Edge Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 As was probably to be expected, Weekend Confirmed tried to talk about this and fucked it up. Garnet failed to express the points in the Eurogamer article in any clear way, making it hard to know if he understood what point was being made . Andrea clearly didn't, made up her own points, and got defensive against those. Andrew whatshisface tried to make it into a joke validating a lot of the complaints about reaction of games press to criticism or being questioned. Jeff kind of got it, though struggled to articulate a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I wish some were being clearer on it as we assume the worst since we don't know what goes on. It may not be that bad but it doesn't look that way to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 As was probably to be expected, Weekend Confirmed tried to talk about this and fucked it up. Garnet failed to express the points in the Eurogamer article in any clear way, making it hard to know if he understood what point was being made . Andrea clearly didn't, made up her own points, and got defensive against those. Andrew whatshisface tried to make it into a joke validating a lot of the complaints about reaction of games press to criticism or being questioned. Jeff kind of got it, though struggled to articulate a little. Yeah I was disappointed in Garnet, Andrea I expect very little from, she basically is a pr person, or at least that's how she comes across. It was pretty clear they hadn't read the article or followed the story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambob Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 What is the main bad thing here, obviously there are lots, but whats worst? Is it that people are being advertised to without them realising - or without it being made clear, or is it that the journalist are being influenced - willingly being influenced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wholehole Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I know the magazine industry got busted a while back for this kind of thing and now they have to clearly mark that the article is an advertisement piece. I've had time to let this stew in my brain and I really don't think it's as bad as it's being made out. Yes, the whole thing with Rab and calling a journalist out was handled in a piss poor way but the overall situation about the press has been blown all out of proportion. I'm fine with whatever PR practices currently go on with regards to freebies here and there, like the Kotaku video for example. The journalists I read content from I trust enough to not let this stuff affect their opinions. Regardless, I wouldn't ever go out and buy something straight off the recommendation of another person, no matter who it is, without having tried it or done my own research first. It's when there's actual bribery I have a problem. Explicitly asking or hinting at receiving a certain review score for money or freebies is definitely bad practice, but a few freebies here and there to use in relevant content for the product in question isn't something I can condemn. It's just the way PR works and always has. We don't have to view the content produced off the back of it, there's plenty of other avenues to get opinions from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craymen Edge Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Is it that people are being advertised to without them realising - or without it being made clear, or is it that the journalist are being influenced - willingly being influenced? Yeah. For me the issue is partly that we seem to have a group of writers who are so unthinking will willingly do the bidding of game publishers/pr people for personal gain (and so cheaply, at that: a chance to win a console they probably already own). Partly that a number of them see absolutely nothing wrong with that, to the extent that they'll attack someone who points out "it makes all of us look dodgy", and are so lacking in introspection that they circle the wagons and reassure each other that any criticism or questioning of them as attacks from haters or jealous gamers. (also see the way the writers from Ploygon failed to understand people laughing at their documetary where they took themselves so seriously for making a website). And partly that they'll write this all off as a witch hunt, and learn nothing from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cevert Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I remember VG24/7 when they were still fairly small (prior to being bought by Eurogamer) ran a news piece about Patrick getting a PS3 in the post from Sony. One thing I think ought to be pointed out is the immense pressure that some journalists feel under to give a game a positive review, not just because of PR influence by also because of people on the internet. One incident that springs to mind was Play magazines review of Dragons Dogma, the guy who reviewed it quite clearly had a mixed opinion of it, but he'd been asked to cover it by his editor and simply did his job. The article was leaked and he received a fair bit of abuse from some of the less intelligent types that couldn't accept that the review was his opinion. If he was of a weaker disposition his next review may have been a bit more positive (I've no idea if it was or not) despite his own feelings about the game purely because of the pressure extolled on him from external sources. The people in question hadn't even played the game at the time, the demo had been released but was (widely) criticised but the forum posts I'd read were all from people who'd had their own mind made up by the Capcom PR machine. Having written the odd article for a couple of smaller sites over the years even receiving the game free can make it difficult to look at it objectively as that personal investment of having handed over your hard earned isn't really there, although that feeling can easily be destroyed when that free game turns out to be Marvel Nemesis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 I think that's part of the problem, most game reviewers are gamers rather than journalists. Gamers can be massive fanboys and will completely buy in to hype, you don't suddenly become immune once you get a pay cheque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGunKnacker Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Giant Bomb sometimes seems like a PR company for their friends' games. that's obviously not how they see it though, and i don't think they're bad people. I enjoy some of their content, but often journalism it ain't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm a little worried about how Giant Bomb will approach it, they aren't exactly faultless. I can see it going one of 2 ways, full on vitriol and indignation at the problems in the industry, or meek "meh, who cares" shrug As was probably to be expected, Weekend Confirmed tried to talk about this and fucked it up. Andrea clearly didn't, made up her own points, and got defensive against those. can't think why Andrea Rene of Machinima would get defensive about integrity Jeff Gerstmann (@jeffgerstmann) 10/30/12, 1:46 AM Something we all need to get better about: pointing out to publishers when they set an embargo that hits after their PC version goes on sale Travis Lopes (@travislopes) 10/30/12, 1:53 AM @jeffgerstmann What's the point of a 9AM embargo when Machinima was giving their partners copies to put up clips of on Friday? Jeff Gerstmann (@jeffgerstmann) 10/30/12, 2:00 AM @travislopes For all we know, that's a content deal that EA fully approves of. No idea. Those guys run an... interesting business. Travis Lopes (@travislopes) 10/30/12, 2:01 AM @jeffgerstmann Machinima gave out 1K copies and the partners all had to state they got a free copy and a monetary bonus for posting it. Jeff Gerstmann (@jeffgerstmann) 10/30/12, 2:08 AM @travislopes Gross. Good on those guys 'n' gals for finding a way to get free games, I guess, but... man, that sounds shady as heck. Travis Lopes (@travislopes) 10/30/12, 2:11 AM @jeffgerstmann When people want game reviews, they don't want it from a trusted source (@giantbomb), but from YouTubers with no credibility. http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=43764178 this is all after her saying there was no conflict of interest and finishing the show (her 'Finishing Move' for those that didn't listen) with a promotion for Machinima's awesome new Halo 4 web series that is the greatest web series ever Edit: to be fair to Gerstmann, he has posted this on neogaf today In the case of that 3DS video, I knew it would look flashy, but I also felt like people needed to know how fucking weird this business can be sometimes. In other cases, I might not say much publicly because I don't want to give any extra airtime to a brand. I got an autographed (by game developers) bag of chips with a video game logo on it today. Given the current promotions out there I'm sure it's not hard to figure out what I'm talking about. But if I promote their product directly by mentioning it by name on Twitter, they win. And fuck that. which suggests he is one of the seemingly few who get it, but he has also indicated he thinks it's an 'overseas' problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Overseas is a meaningless idea when you're a fucking website. Too many things to link to from the last day or so but basically the press have gone back to normal. http://www.polygon.com/2012/10/30/3575978/halo-4-avatar-costume-offered-free-from-u-k-pizza-huts Read the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cevert Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Apparently they were deleting some comments too. But anyone who expected anything to change was seriously deluded, did anything change after the whole Gertsmann Kane & Lynch thing? Did it bollocks, Wainwrights been made into a scapegoat due to her own naivety and the media will continue as normal, in fact the gaming community will continue as normal and we'll see it once one of this years big big releases gets a slightly lower score on one site compared to elsewhere (and as mentioned in the NFS Most Wanted thread I expect something to kick off at CVG). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGunKnacker Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 but he has also indicated he thinks it's an 'overseas' problem what hendo said. patrick klepek mentioned the whole debacle in his last 'worth reading' article and i also felt he would have you believe this kind of thing was happening overseas, not close to home. but the guy whose great article brought this situation into focus, rab florence, is particulary talking about the west coast PR/Press love-in over in the USA which plonks sites like giantbomb well in the splash zone. also i thought it was strange that the only coverage it got on gb was in the opening few paragraphs of an unrelated feature, not its own news article.. that polygon article is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Garnett hasn't been covering himself in glory, he's claimed this is a witch hunt and defending Andrea taking money. Shame, I've always rated Garnett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGunKnacker Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 maybe he has a guilty conscience himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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