Shadow of the Tomb Raider

[Metroid66]

Don't know about that. I had an almost old school TR moment last session, getting almost hopelessly lost in the underworld after tackling a difficult tomb based around a Spanish Galleon. Just about scraped out of there.

 

Of course getting lost used to be the norm back in the early years (and even first reboot) of tomb raider.

[Maf]

I think I know exactly where you mean and it’s where you have to find the exit after completing the big boat in the cave

 

I’ve played the game 3 times and struggled to find the exit every time

 

That might just be a very specific bad bit of game design 

[Metroid66]

4 hours ago, Maf said:

That might just be a very specific bad bit of game design

Or good design, depending on your point of view. Getting lost once or twice in a tomb raider game should be built into the experience if you ask me.

[Maryokutai]

I think getting lost after beating the challenge is more of a signposting/leveldesign oversight. Particularly in this case, as finding your way around has never been part of the design ethos of the reboot trilogy, with detective vision available and whatnot. Those games don't want you to be lost.

 

But hey, if it resulted in a very specific experience you came away from with a positive feeling, then all the power to you. Not every moment of enjoyment you pull out of a game has to be a deliberate piece of design by its developers.

[Metroid66]

On 05/01/2025 at 11:27, Maryokutai said:

Those games don't want you to be lost.

 

You're right of course.

 

I don't even know if there's a big market for games that offer difficulty in the puzzle/navigation department these days, although combat difficulty in something like dark souls seems to draw the crowds (while not really interesting me that much).

 

I was a bit surprised by the puzzles in the recent Indiana Jones thing. That was really low grade, and did put me off a bit, although not as much as the frankly silly stealth and combat.

 

Stealth in this isn't bad tho, better than the other 2 anyway, with enemies sometimes even appearing to value their own lives, and forcing you to use all available strategies including mud and water.

 

There's also difficulty in the optional tombs too. That Spanish Galleon was a bugger. So the balance is probably right for modern gaming sensibilities.

[Maryokutai]

It's hard to say whether there's an appetite for it because it seems incredibly difficult to realise in tandem with higher visual fidelity. When everything around you looks just as nicely detailed than the stuff 100 meters away, how do you even start processing what can be accessed and what can't? People make fun of the yellow paint in FFVII but that stuff is there for a reason, and the reason presumably being that testers had no clue where to go. When you look at games like Jusant, I think there's more than just a financial reasoning behind its clean and simple visual style, because it allows them to properly communicate pathways visually without resorting to those shortcuts.

 

I hope someone eventually finds a clever way to pull it off because outside of From's games (and a lot of Nintendo stuff), which aren't particularly state-of-the-art in terms of visual fidelity, there's not that big of a focus on smart level design in triple-A games anymore.

[shinymcshine]

There's perhaps a degree of crossover with my comments in the "Still Wakes the Deep" and the reboot TR games - where ponderous head scratching pathfinding seems nowadays replaced by QTE or short timed action sequences (often leading, well in my case) to repetitive death sequences.

 

So rather than a slow methodical approach it's quick reaction / action & consequence - and maybe that's due to having to capture & maintain an audience.

 

But creates to me an issue of not respecting, or putting a value on, the life & death of your character - where it often restarts with minimal game time lost and zero consequences (but relies on fast reactions, targeting or search time) and maybe leads to a lack of player engagement (a significantly different approach to the Souls games).

[Metroid66]

On 08/01/2025 at 11:05, shinymcshine said:

where ponderous head scratching pathfinding seems nowadays replaced by QTE or short timed action sequence

 

To give this game it's due, the optional tombs here have a scale to them that gives at least a taste of the old raider games, not to mention a couple of boss fights against an endangered species looking for dinner.

 

The two tombs I did last night were vast and mind boggling enough that I (inwardly) applauded the devs for their exertions.

 

Of course there is a puzzle in Underworld that requires a motorbike to get from one end to the other. So they've still drawn in the reins somewhat.

[Metroid66]

Spent my last session mopping up tombs - bloody 3 on the trot, and I'm still full of admiration for the scale they went for here. Everything is massive and spectacular, and even Lara is prone to applauding the eye candy on entering one of these puzzlers, "That's amazing," she's said more than once.

 

And you know how hard she is to impress since the T-rex incident.

[Maryokutai]

41 minutes ago, Metroid66 said:

And you know how hard she is to impress since the T-rex incident.

 

That happens after this game.

 

It's Whiny -> Cocky -> Emo in that order. T-Rex happens during the Cocky saga, you're still in the Whiny era.

[Metroid66]

You're right.

 

I have anniversary tee'd up on my pc, so i could have a go at that mad dino, but I sort of want a break from Lara (just finished shadow) and then I'll play the first reboot trilogy in order which, I think, is legend, anniversary, underworld. That's how I remember it, anyway, but might be wrong.

 

Shadow though. Bloody great game that. Excellent trilogy really. Looking forward to the new one.