Destiny 2

[ThreeFour]

£60 all in. 

 

£35 for September Forsaken expansion.

 

I'm down for the Forsaken. Does look good. Not sure on the expansion pass.

 

@Sly Reflex It was likened to WoW but I thinkost knew it wouldn't be like that. I don't want an experience like Wow. Too much of a time sink. Destiny is MMO lite. A social co-op looter shooter and that's what I want.

 

It's been a while since I played Borderlands 2 but I don't remember it being as Epic as you make out. I remember being underwhelmed by the Gunzerkers 'super' and the majority of the weapons just drowned in the similarities. I literally spent loads of time dumping that resource into the gambling machine and chucking the majority of it away. I literally couldn't name you one weapon I grew attached too. I might go back and revisit it but I'd much rather a sequel come out and see what's up.

 

I'm not sure how the weapon system will play out. Destiny has a viable PvP area and as such has an issue balancing most others do not. Part of the issue, and why changes were made for D2, was the prevalence of Sniping and shottgunners plaguing Crucible. Nobody used primaries. This new system will just bring that back up. We'll just have to wait and see. 

 

Lots of Unknowns. Time will tell. 

[Sly Reflex]

24 minutes ago, ThreeFour said:

Destiny has a viable PvP area

 

 

 

Being underwhelmed at the Gunzerkers super is something someone would say when they've not studied how the game works. I mean it's 2 guns, double the firepower and health regen to help you be aggressive as possible. Now actively look at the perks he has in his trees and link them to the weapons you find. It's infinitely more complex than anything D2 could throw at you build wise. Actually levelling up makes you feel more powerful as you make your way to level cap. Each time you level up after level 5 you have 6 ways to expand and grow your character. In D2 it's just linear. In fact it mattered so little during my playthroughs I just added all the points in when I was done. That's not how you make interesting skill trees. It's straight up boring. If the Gunzerker isn't your thing, then try to other 5 classes. Personally I'm not a big fan of the Gunzerker or the Siren similar to how I don't like the Hunter because his specials aren't my cup of tea. It's all about finding the groove you sit most comfortably in. Each person sits into an archetype. Some people like to tank, some people like to heal and others like to do the many variants of DPS. 

 

Yep, there's a lot of guns. Did you ever take time to have a good look at them? Each manufacturer has barrel, body stock etc and those components all go into making a gun. For instance getting a Vladof barrel on a gun means it will have a better fire rate. Getting a Tediore grip will make reloads faster. Having an ammo rack will make the magazine slightly bigger etc. One of the biggest gripes you hear from Destiny players is that random rolls need to come back. That's Borderlands random rolls, it's those parts that make up the quality of the gun, it gets to the point you don't even need to look at the rarity of the gun because of how the system is designed, if the gun looks a certain way it will acquire certain abilities which feed back into the build of your chosen character. It's pretty funny you're talking about similarities too, when a lot of D2 guns are literal reskins with no changes other than how they look. For a gun to be statistically the same in Borderlands is infinitely small, and because of how the classes spec up there's no such thing as a perfect roll, because each class has it's own needs in regards to what is a good weapon. D2 is like Borderlands without the good parts when it comes to the guns. You spend 99% of your time chucking guns away. You know the same as anyone that as soon as you get the guns you decrypted the first thing you do is check to see what you got and then dismantle them, at least in BL2 you can check them before actually picking them up too.

 

Growing attached to a weapon doesn't really happen until end game. You might get a legendary early on you hold on to for way too long, but those guns will hold a special place in your mind because of how different they were. Shit, I can remember the Crux and Pestilent Defiler from BL1 like it was yesterday, but then again I remember my first exotic drop (a NLB I got while doing a nightfall Archons Priest with @DifferentClass and @Duck). Same with BL2, I remember getting a Bonus Package from the first proper boss you come up against and being in awe of not only how different it was, but also the chaos it could cause. I cant' remember the first exotic I got from D2. I think it was a Warlock helmet. I can't remember the name of it. Not great really when you consider I got that drop less than a year ago, while the first lot are coming up for ten years old now.

 

In no way am I saying that BL2 is the pinnacle of looter shooter, some parts of it straight up cocks. The vehicles are shit. The animation on the NPC's is wonky. The jumping about is bad. You can clip and get stuck on parts of the levels. The raid bosses over rely on cheap nova spam. Hard earned drops can drop where you can't get to them. The bank is shite. The story is full of holes (at least it has a story though, amirite?). The hardest difficulty slag is a requirement. It has Tiny Tina who is literal cancer.  D2 has it beat hands down in certain areas. It's interesting to go back and see how a game got it as perfect as it was going to be then and watch as other games try to ape it, but fuck up by not learning from its mistakes.

 

Fuck, D2 didn't even learn from D1's mistakes. We've been told time and time again that we're being listened to but it never feels that way, and often when it does happen it's one step forward and two steps back.

 

Again, lots of unknowns. Time will tell.

[ThreeFour]

What you laffin at sucka? I know it's in a ballsed up spot but it's only a tweak away from being great again. It's still better than the tweaker fest that is CoD. Titanfall and Battlefield I preferred though I did prefere Crucible to BF1. 

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Being underwhelmed at the Gunzerkers super is something someone would say when they've not studied how the game works. I mean it's 2 guns, double the firepower and health regen to help you be aggressive as possible. Now actively look at the perks he has in his trees and link them to the weapons you find. It's infinitely more complex than anything D2 could throw at you build wise. 

I know how it worked it just wasn't as impactful as it sounds. It lasted a few seconds and firing two guns isn't as fun as activating a Sith lord and melting through mobs if enemies. But you are going on fresh memories and I'm just recalling the vague hints of what I remember those years ago when it came out. I'm not gonna rag on Borderlands as I did really enjoy what it offered.

 

It seems to me though you don't know how Destiny's system works. Exotics combined with class abilities combine to make some awesome teamwork or beat raid mechanics (BL doesn't have raids you can't call them that. Glorified boss hideouts) combine the Hunger voidlock with Sword or Lance to be a tanky mob destroyer or a Hunter with the Orb tree and Aspect legs for a shit to of suppression and orbs for your allies. Even better since Warmind I can now be a grenade lobbing feind with Sunbracers or stand in a Warlock rift emptying hundreds of rounds with Sweet Business without reloading. Don't say there isn't a tactical system in place. You must not have done end game stuff or been oblivious to methods employed.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Yep, there's a lot of guns. Did you ever take time to have a good look at them? Each manufacturer has barrel, body stock etc and those components all go into making a gun. For instance getting a Vladof barrel on a gun means it will have a better fire rate. Getting a Tediore grip will make reloads faster. Having an ammo rack will make the magazine slightly bigger etc. One of the biggest gripes you hear from Destiny players is that random rolls need to come back. That's Borderlands random rolls, it's those parts that make up the quality of the gun, it gets to the point you don't even need to look at the rarity of the gun because of how the system is designed, if the gun looks

There's archetypes and eventually you start seeing the same or very similar patterns emerge. Again im going off old memory but I don't remember  them being majorly different outside of a set template. I'm not saying Destiny has amazing variety but what it does is make a weapon a set tool. I don't need umpteen guns that spew fire rounds. I just need one in each class that works different. I'd like more variety and craziness in Destiny but Exotics are one offs you won't get anything like. Gjallahorn, Thorn, Icebreaker, Last Word, Dark Drinker etc etc are such memorable weapons that BL doesn't have. Post me a video of something unique - Refresh my memory and put alongside what I mentioned.

 

People wanted Random rolls for something to grind for bit it isn't the answer. I don't remember the guns rolls being much better in BL for the reason it ain't that interesting. Destiny needs more impactful and better mods to apply to weapons. The Catalyst system for the current Exotics are more of what we need. Ways to improve weapons to tailor to our style.

 

 

Anyway it's all moot to suggest Borderlands is any competition. Theyre different games. It never was what Destiny and the Division etc are. It's a narrative co-op looter that people will be done with after a month. It was never intended to be a progressively supported social game. That could all change if they decide to go down this route, which I'd be glad for. 

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Fuck, D2 didn't even learn from D1's mistakes. We've been told time and time again that we're being listened to but it never feels that way, and often when it does happen it's one step forward and two steps back.

Agreed. I'm D2's biggest critic but I live this game day in day out and I know they've been listening. Some really good signs of things to come in Warmind. Community feedback on a closed doors talk about the direction of Destiny was positive. Like SkillUp, people say they're done and Destiny is dead like a child having a strop. I know full well if the tide turns and the game is great people will flood back. There isn't anything like Destiny. And it will only be that way if the Devs listen and prove they want to make it. 

 

We do need competition though. The sooner Anthem and any others come up the better.

[ThreeFour]

Just watched some gameplay and videos in legendary weapons in BL2 to freshen the viewpoint. Reminded me what put me off. A lot of spammy weapons. Just a hail of vapour or bullets whether it be a sniper or pistol or shotgun. Damage numbers littering the hitbox. It leans heavy into that RPG aspect with crit percentages and insane health numbers. The kind of stuff that puts me off Division.

 

Not to say it isn't fun. I'd love more of that to complement Destiny. Not sure I'd want it to go full in on it though like a supported MMO type thing.

[Sly Reflex]

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

What you laffin at sucka? I know it's in a ballsed up spot but it's only a tweak away from being great again. It's still better than the tweaker fest that is CoD. Titanfall and Battlefield I preferred though I did prefere Crucible to BF1. 

 

It's pure shite. D1 was OK, but it wasn't anywhere near as good as something like Halo or Gears in their glory years. I couldn't even make it through the induction of D2's comp. Proper snorefest. Loot based games cannot be competitive on a level that feels right. Even when you boost everyone to the max there's too much discrepancy between players gear to really have a nice well balanced playing field. You can't have skill based gameplay where luck is involved, and when it comes to being dunked on out of nowhere. That's always the kicker, you should never feel like your death was unpreventable, and when there's all sorts of shit flying about like there was in D1, then it can't be classed as anything other than a crapshoot.

 

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

I know how it worked it just wasn't as impactful as it sounds. It lasted a few seconds and firing two guns isn't as fun as activating a Sith lord and melting through mobs if enemies.

 

Wasn't impactful? Complete and utter shite. You can run through while areas and not lose your super. He's doing it with one of the underpowered guns at that too. His super is on roids if you can kill shit fast enough.

 

 

I do love the Warlocks void/arc special, but it's nowhere near game changing as a guy with two guns.

 

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

It seems to me though you don't know how Destiny's system works. Exotics combined with class abilities combine to make some awesome teamwork or beat raid mechanics (BL doesn't have raids you can't call them that. Glorified boss hideouts) combine the Hunger voidlock with Sword or Lance to be a tanky mob destroyer or a Hunter with the Orb tree and Aspect legs for a shit to of suppression and orbs for your allies. Even better since Warmind I can now be a grenade lobbing feind with Sunbracers or stand in a Warlock rift emptying hundreds of rounds with Sweet Business without reloading. Don't say there isn't a tactical system in place. You must not have done end game stuff or been oblivious to methods employed.

 

I know very well how it works, it's just as deep as a puddle. 3 choices in 3 trees, toggle options on armour. It's got about as much depth as one of those shell paddling pools kids have. Just one of the Borderlands classes has enough variation in permutations to absolutely bury a class in Destiny.

 

Raids. Yeah, they're glorified bosses. Not on the level of Destiny's Raids, but then again I was only mildly impressed with VoG . People lose their shit over them but they're no WoW raids. There might be tactics in place, but you'd have to be dense as fuck not to use those. Stand in this circle and shoot over this barrier. Tactics! I've done little bits of end game stuff, they gradually got less interesting as they went on and as a result I've not seen the last raid. Nor have I beat the raid in D2, spent hours doing shit perfectly for someone else to fuck up and make the night worthless though. There's only so much you can watch someone drop the ball before you get fed up. I can't comment of stuff post Warmind, I've not played it.

 

Although reading back while I'm typing this up, you mention the hail of bullets from Sweet Business and then shit on the same bullet hose that is the Gunzerker. I thought that was funny.

 

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

I'm not saying Destiny has amazing variety but what it does is make a weapon a set tool. I don't need umpteen guns that spew fire rounds. I just need one in each class that works different.

 

There's no point having umpteen guns in D2 that does arc/solar/void damage then is there? Just have the 3 guns. The point is you find one that works for you. It's a loot game, go looting and see what you turn up. It'd be boring if there was only a tiny pool of stuff to drop.

 

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

I'd like more variety and craziness in Destiny but Exotics are one offs you won't get anything like. Gjallahorn, Thorn, Icebreaker, Last Word, Dark Drinker etc etc are such memorable weapons that BL doesn't have.

 

What are you even talking about here? There's plenty of memorable weapons. The Babymaker (SMG that when thrown clusterbombs), Conference Call (one if not the most sought after weapons int he game). The Fastball (super fast grenade with a tiny but excruciatingly damaging AoE), Bee Shield (Amp sheild that has insane damage buffs on it), The Infinity (what the guy in the vid is using despite them being weaker than other options, never run out of ammo or need reloading), The Maggie (mad six shooter that splits the bullets), The Norfleet (e-tech rocket launcher that makes the Gjally look like a lil' bitch), The Quasar ( an AoE grenade that's basically a tesla coil), The Sham ( shield that basically eats the ammo shot at you), The Slagga (a SMG with a huge mag and 100% slag chance), The Unkempt Harold (a monster of a handgun) and the WTF (booster shield that throws out shocks when you get hit). Those are just the bigger ones, not including uniques. The Bane (talking gun that's very annoying), the Bad Touch (SMG that has good stats, vibrates when you fire it and also heals you), The Blockhead (Minecraft inspired gun that has a specific pellet pattern) , The Tinderbox (slow firing flare gun that sets enemies on fire), The Grog Nozzle (heals and gets you drunk, making you do more damage), The Lady Fist (extreme crit damage), The Love Thumper (Roid shield that causes explosions to come from you when you melee hit an enemy), The Pimpernel (sniper that has a unique projectile split),  The Rapier (best melee weapon in the game), Rubi (Moxxi's pistol), The Sandhawk (SMG with interesting bullet pattern, also damaging as fuck), The Scorpio (Rolands gun) and The Teapot (corrosive pistol from that annoying little shit).

 

Granted, the top half of that list are super hard to get, but the bottom half you get just by doing missions. You should have seen those at least. Destiny has some very memorable weapons (Mines the Bad Juju), but you're having a fucking laugh if you can't remember anything from the game at all.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

People wanted Random rolls for something to grind for bit it isn't the answer. I don't remember the guns rolls being much better in BL for the reason it ain't that interesting. Destiny needs more impactful and better mods to apply to weapons. The Catalyst system for the current Exotics are more of what we need. Ways to improve weapons to tailor to our style.

 

 

Pretty much all the hardcore Destiny fans are saying that random rolls have to come back for something to grind. The whole meme with the 10th Better Devils is a piss take of that. Mods are just something else to grind, all you are doing is substituting the grind for the guns with the good rolls for the mods with the good rolls so you can fuse them together. It's more or less the same difference. The mod system as it was the last time I played was practically unnoticeable, especially when trying to stack something with the depreciating terms. I agree with the last bit though, something needs to be done to make the things you've worked for yours.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Anyway it's all moot to suggest Borderlands is any competition. Theyre different games. It never was what Destiny and the Division etc are. It's a narrative co-op looter that people will be done with after a month. It was never intended to be a progressively supported social game. That could all change if they decide to go down this route, which I'd be glad for. 

 

 

I dunno. I said I'd never go back to Borderlands after the amount of time I've spent with it, but after spending the last few years playing D1, TD, D2 and WF I'd say the people playing them are exactly the people that are interested in these sorts of games. Sure, BL2 has a month or so of content before people will drop off, but if you put all the content from the games mentioned earlier on in the sentence then you'd be bored as well by that point. Player numbers collapsed on each of those games when most people their own logical conclusion with the game. had seen the story through and got to. Also for an old game, it sure has a lot of people playing it. It currently sits at 48th most played game on steam which is pretty impressive considering it's an older than the current crop of consoles. I can't find numbers just for PC to have parity, but overall they reckon there's something like 600k playing Destiny going off 4 month old stats. I'd say they were competition, they're aiming for the same bit of the market, albeit years apart from initial release. They're scratching the same itch.

 

I think the next Borderlands will have an always online component, even if it's just social hubs. There's too much money to be made and Take Two won't allow that moment to pass if the rest of their catalogue is anything to go buy. It's the thing they do even if it doesn't make sense. I'll be happy for them to prove me wrong.

 

I do think D2 will get better. It has to. There's some major fucking competition on the way, Warframe is already eating into the crowd that goes for it, Anthem and The Division 2 are just around the corner, potentially another Borderlands is on the horizon as well. There's only so many players to go around and if they don't pick up the pace they'll be cannibalised. Maybe it's the kick up the arse they need...

 

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

It leans heavy into that RPG aspect with crit percentages and insane health numbers.

 

I don't think anything will ever have more hitpoints than that spidertank in the Destiny alpha. Was shooting at the cunt for the best part of 30 minutes before it blew up and allowed us to go break Sepiks' dick off.  

[ThreeFour]

Ah shit I knew I shouldn't have answered. You're worse than Blakey for the wall of text ?

 

Suppose I'll oblige.

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

It's pure shite. D1 was OK, but it wasn't anywhere near as good as something like Halo or Gears in their glory years. I couldn't even make it through the induction of D2's comp. Proper snorefest. Loot based games cannot be competitive on a level that feels right. Even when you boost everyone to the max there's too much discrepancy between players gear to really have a nice well balanced playing field. You can't have skill based gameplay where luck is involved, and when it comes to being dunked on out of nowhere. That's always the kicker, you should never feel like your death was unpreventable, and when there's all sorts of shit flying about like there was in D1, then it can't be classed as anything other than a crapshoot.

Don't talk rubbish. You've a tendency to over exaggerate - it isn't shit. It has issues. But it wouldn't have people that were big on Halo committing time to it if it were such. No one's saying it's MLG competitive but it certainly isn't a crap shoot. Luck ? that may be the excuse if you're getting slapped but the only thing considered unavoidable are supers, but there so infrequent it hardly matters and there's ways to combat them. But seeing as Destiny is built the way it is any crazy additions to PvE like ROG mechanics or mega weapons will totally unbalance it. Shit loads enjoy PvP so that needs bearing in mind when calling for BL/WF levels of nutness. Not all games need to cater to the same audience.

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Wasn't impactful? Complete and utter shite. You can run through while areas and not lose your super. He's doing it with one of the underpowered guns at that too. His super is on roids if you can kill shit fast enough.

 

What gameplay is that? He wasn't like that when I played. I wanted your gameplay of this awesome ability you're talking about. Not some random guy specced out. But I'll take your word on it not being a cherry picked video. 

 

Even still tho, impactful I mean a big impact and then back to gameplay. I know it sounds odd but he's basically just running around enraged with two guns. Opinions differ but it's just not that exciting, thats why I said it to you originally. Take Anthem in the reveal. Where she locks on and carpet bombs the fuck out of them and back to normal initiation. Not running around continuing. That decision to use that powerful ability there. Destiny is a shooter first and foremost with the little bit of wow moments and plays. That's what I like. 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

know very well how it works, it's just as deep as a puddle. 3 choices in 3 trees, toggle options on armour. It's got about as much depth as one of those shell paddling pools kids have. Just one of the Borderlands classes has enough variation in permutations to absolutely bury a class in Destiny.

 

Raids. Yeah, they're glorified bosses. Not on the level of Destiny's Raids, but then again I was only mildly impressed with VoG . People lose their shit over them but they're no WoW raids. There might be tactics in place, but you'd have to be dense as fuck not to use those. Stand in this circle and shoot over this barrier. Tactics! I've done little bits of end game stuff, they gradually got less interesting as they went on and as a result I've not seen the last raid. Nor have I beat the raid in D2, spent hours doing shit perfectly for someone else to fuck up and make the night worthless though. There's only so much you can watch someone drop the ball before you get fed up. I can't comment of stuff post Warmind, I've not played it.

 

Although reading back while I'm typing this up, you mention the hail of bullets from Sweet Business and then shit on the same bullet hose that is the Gunzerker. I thought that was funny

I don't believe you. 3 choices in a tree? There's two. Toggle options on armour? Base choice of recovery/mobility/resilience. It's the exotics that shake up the playstyle and tactics. How many raid completions you had? You get any of the top weapons previously? The way you talk it feels not. At least I've an excuse BL was years ago last gen ?

 

Jesus you can't expect WoW level raids. You won't see that in any FPS or 3rdPS. You mention spending all night for one to fuck it up imagine a WoW level raids. Leeeeeroy Jenkins!! ? You don't stand in one spot either. No raid is the same neither are the encounters within. I change up my loadout for each part. Just on one class. Some are suited to tasks better than others. You should know this though right? ? The raids are unanimously enjoyed and lauded by anyone in the gaming community. Even if they don't like the game. You shitting on them to spite or what. Don't get it.

 

Sweet business and Gunzerkers are two different things mate, why so funny. I said the Gunzerker wasn't that epic. My opinion. Thats his class though. His schtick. Sweet business is one weapon as an example I provided. 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

There's no point having umpteen guns in D2 that does arc/solar/void damage then is there? Just have the 3 guns. The point is you find one that works for you. It's a loot game, go looting and see what you turn up. It'd be boring if there was only a tiny pool of stuff to drop.

 

I can't be arsed finding a video but essentially the guns can be so messy in BL that firing a fire SMG and a fire AR shit blends into one. Not the status or elemental effect it has. BL isn't as clinical a shooter as Destiny. A Sniper is a precision tool for ranged damage, should be high skill to use effectively, yet play with Lyuda or such in BL and it's anything but. Again it's not that BL is bad but it's not what I'm after in my preferred shooter. I'd like Destiny to be more creative but I still want a sniper to be a sniper.

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Granted, the top half of that list are super hard to get, but the bottom half you get just by doing missions. You should have seen those at least. Destiny has some very memorable weapons (Mines the Bad Juju), but you're having a fucking laugh if you can't remember anything from the game at all.

I didn't play all the DLC's nor get the Handsome collection so some were probably not there. Some names do vaguely seem familiar. Kinda all messy though. Not my thing. Noticing we got different tastes in weaponry here ?

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Pretty much all the hardcore Destiny fans are saying that random rolls have to come back for something to grind. The whole meme with the 10th Better Devils is a piss take of that. Mods are just something else to grind, all you are doing is substituting the grind for the guns with the good rolls for the mods with the good rolls so you can fuse them together. It's more or less the same difference. The mod system as it was the last time I played was practically unnoticeable, especially when trying to stack something with the depreciating terms. I agree with the last bit though, something needs to be done to make the things you've worked for yours.

No they agree the random system is better than what we currently have, but the whole reason we got to where we are now is from complaints about never getting the gun you want. Forever grind for the Malok etc. There's a point where a fun grind becomes tedious. Mods for weapons is best of both. You get the frame say. A base Better Devils. You level it up from rare to legendary gaining mod nodes as you go. You get mods from various sources. You can apply your mods to whatever weapon is applicable. That way if you prefer X weapon stick your favourite mod into. No fucking about hoping it'll drop exactly as you want one day. The grind us there, but it's efficient. The Mod system is obviously early days but has so much potential. You'll see it changed in Forsaken mark my words.

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

I dunno. I said I'd never go back to Borderlands after the amount of time I've spent with it, but after spending the last few years playing D1, TD, D2 and WF I'd say the people playing them are exactly the people that are interested in these sorts of games. Sure, BL2 has a month or so of content before people will drop off, but if you put all the content from the games mentioned earlier on in the sentence then you'd be bored as well by that point. Player numbers collapsed on each of those games when most people their own logical conclusion with the game. had seen the story through and got to

By their design they keep you playing for the loot and encounters. BL isn't that type of thing, like it's very story driven with no sociable raid or PvP stuff to keep players invested. A large amount of people will enjoy the story do some bits and pop back to Anthem/Destiny/Division. Of course this could change if BL changes things up. Is it wise though. There's only so much time a gamer can invest in these games so some choices will be made. I'm ready to sacrifice Division if Anthem is awesome. Players will filter to their preference and I fully believe Destiny will be a top one ??

 

3 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

don't think anything will ever have more hitpoints than that spidertank in the Destiny alpha. Was shooting at the cunt for the best part of 30 minutes before it blew up and allowed us to go break Sepiks' dick off.  

Haha, yeah. I meant health numbers on player. Can't be a proper RPG system without health bar in the hundreds of thousands ?

 

Destiny did have some bullet springs bosses. Like Rockets McDickface ? Thankfully they aren't like that now. Set up right you can absolutely fuck them.

 

 

 

Fuck me I hate doing this wall of text shit. Especially in my phone. If you wanna debate set up a podcast ??

 

 

[Sly Reflex]

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Shit loads enjoy PvP so that needs bearing in mind when calling for BL/WF levels of nutness. Not all games need to cater to the same audience.

 

Said  it before, I'll say it again. PvP in Destiny needs standardising. It's holding both parts of the game back. Paring  it right back might make it interesting as well.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

What gameplay is that? He wasn't like that when I played. I wanted your gameplay of this awesome ability you're talking about. Not some random guy specced out. But I'll take your word on it not being a cherry picked video. 

 

Even still tho, impactful I mean a big impact and then back to gameplay. I know it sounds odd but he's basically just running around enraged with two guns. Opinions differ but it's just not that exciting, thats why I said it to you originally. Take Anthem in the reveal. Where she locks on and carpet bombs the fuck out of them and back to normal initiation. Not running around continuing. That decision to use that powerful ability there. Destiny is a shooter first and foremost with the little bit of wow moments and plays. That's what I like. 

 

So clearing out quickly isn't a big impact? OK then...

 

I don't have my own gameplay recorded, but it's possible to do stuff like that. You don't find it exciting, then that's fine. There's a difference between having impact and liking it. There's still a decision to use the gunzerk there as well as prioritisation of targets to keep it going. There's a skill there in balancing kills out so you can keep going. Same with the skills in both games.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

I don't believe you. 3 choices in a tree? There's two. Toggle options on armour? Base choice of recovery/mobility/resilience. It's the exotics that shake up the playstyle and tactics. How many raid completions you had? You get any of the top weapons previously? The way you talk it feels not. At least I've an excuse BL was years ago last gen

 

It's think it's three, but I could be wrong. You get to pick a grenade type, a jump type and a melee type (unless the melee type is merged into the two picks at the end?). Toggle on option on armour, I mean you have to pick between two options between two of those out of the three you mentioned. Mobility was pointless and resiliance was pointless over a certain mark since you gained no real tangible benefit from it, recovery seemed to be the one to go for. Raid completions, maybe 3 or 4, I didn't find them particularly engrossing and I hate having to wait about forever to get people online or for people to stop pissing about when you're in game to progress, plus when you add in people fucking up it can get old quick. Had a Gjally and an Icebreaker among other things. Nice bits of kit. I'm not denying that.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

The raids are unanimously enjoyed and lauded by anyone in the gaming community.

 

They're good for what they are. They're not exactly groundbreaking though. I get the point about being about all night to do a part though if the complexity was upped.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

I can't be arsed finding a video but essentially the guns can be so messy in BL that firing a fire SMG and a fire AR shit blends into one. Not the status or elemental effect it has. BL isn't as clinical a shooter as Destiny. A Sniper is a precision tool for ranged damage, should be high skill to use effectively, yet play with Lyuda or such in BL and it's anything but. Again it's not that BL is bad but it's not what I'm after in my preferred shooter. I'd like Destiny to be more creative but I still want a sniper to be a sniper.

 

Nah, I don't agree here at all. There might be some cross over in a Vladof AR to something like a Hyperion SMG, but the fire rates in SMG are much higher,  the magazines are generally much  (again going to get overlap with some Bandit style weapons) the reloads of much faster and because of that the DoT's tend to be higher. Effective range is completely different too. I agree that the shooting isn't as nice, but the gap that the stats afford make the lowest stuff harder to use than the higher stuff. It's like the shooting in Division, it's more RPG based whereas Destiny might as well just be a shooter with lots of guns, since the gap between how the bad ones handle isn't as wide. For instance before I reached max rank and started getting legendary stuff in D1, I used to use a blue auto rifle, it felt no different from one of the purples I got further into my Destiny career. The only difference I could see between those games was how they looked, one had a cooler name and the rarity was higher.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

I didn't play all the DLC's nor get the Handsome collection so some were probably not there. Some names do vaguely seem familiar. Kinda all messy though. Not my thing. Noticing we got different tastes in weaponry here

 

That's the beauty of BL2, there's really something for everyone. When you hear people play and talk about how they built around a legendary that dropped that I also had and dropped because I didn't think much of it, only for them to go "Oh, if you give it to this class and do this, then you're going to have a good time" makes me realise that I was looking at that particular weapon wrong. When the game came out and you had all those consume 4 ammo shotguns that basically had one shot in them they made fuck all sense. Then suddenly the Mechromacer comes out and guess what? She loves to reload, each time she reloads she does more damage. Immediately those weapons that once looked shit are now something to keep an eye on if you fancy making a high burst DPS build with that particular class. It's looking at the guns and joining the dots to where they should be used, not like Destiny where you have this weapon now so it's time to dominate/cheese.

 

If you have time, I would like you to take a step back in time and play it if you can. I said it before and I'll say it again. In a time where we've had a few of these loot heavy shooters since BL2 came out, BL2 is still the best at handling certain aspects of the looter shooter.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

No they agree the random system is better than what we currently have, but the whole reason we got to where we are now is from complaints about never getting the gun you want. Forever grind for the Malok etc. There's a point where a fun grind becomes tedious. Mods for weapons is best of both. You get the frame say. A base Better Devils. You level it up from rare to legendary gaining mod nodes as you go. You get mods from various sources. You can apply your mods to whatever weapon is applicable. That way if you prefer X weapon stick your favourite mod into. No fucking about hoping it'll drop exactly as you want one day. The grind us there, but it's efficient. The Mod system is obviously early days but has so much potential. You'll see it changed in Forsaken mark my words.

 

Whatever, you're still grinding for the parts. Go play Warframe and look for the mods you need to make your guns and frame better. There's no less grind, you're just shifting the focus.

 

They probably will change it, they have to be doing something. It'll never be good enough though, since people want everything right this minute, they have no (Time and) patience.

 

Unrelated, but I once spent 10 straight hours farming for a Sham and a Bitch from Bunker. Didn't get either from him. Prick. I did find those drops elsewhere through random playign though, which was nice.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

By their design they keep you playing for the loot and encounters. BL isn't that type of thing, like it's very story driven with no sociable raid or PvP stuff to keep players invested. A large amount of people will enjoy the story do some bits and pop back to Anthem/Destiny/Division. Of course this could change if BL changes things up. Is it wise though. There's only so much time a gamer can invest in these games so some choices will be made. I'm ready to sacrifice Division if Anthem is awesome. Players will filter to their preference and I fully believe Destiny will be a top one

 

What you going to do if Borderlands 3 becomes top dog?  

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Fuck me I hate doing this wall of text shit. Especially in my phone.

 

Don't bring a phone to a keyboard fight.  

[ThreeFour]

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Said  it before, I'll say it again. PvP in Destiny needs standardising. It's holding both parts of the game back. Paring  it right back might make it interesting as well

 

We've both said this and agreed before to some extent. You've got to respect tho Sly the fact it has a unique situation where anything dropped is viable in both. People like that aspect. Dropping a weapon in a strike and going 'eugh this is shit but ooo it might be good in PvP'. Loads of weapons, like the Malok, have been grinded for for that very purpose. To remove that aspect is to remove that grind. Right now in PvP the Claymore is sought after as it's potentially brilliant for PvE also. So while I agree something needs doing its not as simple as you proclaim.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

So clearing out quickly isn't a big impact? OK then...

 

I don't have my own gameplay recorded, but it's possible to do stuff like that. You don't find it exciting, then that's fine. There's a difference between having impact and liking it. There's still a decision to use the gunzerk there as well as prioritisation of targets to keep it going. There's a skill there in balancing kills out so you can keep going. Same with the skills in both games

 

It's a piece of piss to do on PS4. I've uploaded loads of my gameplay. Depends on your definition of impact. I mean the impact something has  is related to your enjoyment no? No doubt he's more powerful than normal but he's not clearing stuff out faster than examples I mentioned. Sith Lord is the king of red bar removal ? but again I seriously don't remember him being like that. Maybe full skill tree unlock and specced out but not early on which is why I asked for your gameplay as I assume you're talking first hand. I can concede it's a little more interesting than I remember but I still find Supers more impactful and interesting in D. Which is the crux of this thing.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

It's think it's three, but I could be wrong. You get to pick a grenade type, a jump type and a melee type (unless the melee type is merged into the two picks at the end?). Toggle on option on armour, I mean you have to pick between two options between two of those out of the three you mentioned. Mobility was pointless and resiliance was pointless over a certain mark since you gained no real tangible benefit from it, recovery seemed to be the one to go for. Raid completions, maybe 3 or 4, I didn't find them particularly engrossing and I hate having to wait about forever to get people online or for people to stop pissing about when you're in game to progress, plus when you add in people fucking up it can get old quick. Had a Gjally and an Icebreaker among other things. Nice bits of kit. I'm not denying that.

 

Yeah there's three grenades per subclass, two class ability choices, three jump types and two playstyle choices. On armour different  pieces have different choices of two. Hunters easily spec into mobility, Titans into resilience and Warlocks into recovery as more pieces prioritize that. It's not that impactful but it is wise to be aware of it. Different priorities depending on PvE or PvP. It might not appear so but just within that you mention there is specs you choose for different situations. Certain grenades are better at walling of a waypoint or damage, certain playstyle again lean into what you're doing. Combine bottom tree on Nightstalker with Aspect legs for orbs, top tree on Golden gun with Nighthawk for damage etc etc. Not a dig but it doesn't sound like you put much investment into this. Which of course then leads to the puddle comments ?

This is the issue with games like Division and Destiny. If you have high end content that requires team play and communication you need a team. Something BL will have to bear in mind if it does go down this route. It's not just sticking in social hubs. The game will funfementally play different. High end stuff you can't physically do on your own. Gjallahorn and Icebreaker are nice exotics but they aren't raid pieces. I'm talking Black hammer or Fatebringer for legendaries or Vex and Outbreak Prime for exotics. Each of these weapons could change your loadout making encounters easier.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

They're good for what they are. They're not exactly groundbreaking though. I get the point about being about all night to do a part though if the complexity was upped

 

Meh I'd say they are. Nothing like them in a FPS before and Division proved how impressive they are and difficult to do properly. When the competition steps up then they won't be as impressive.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Nah, I don't agree here at all. There might be some cross over in a Vladof AR to something like a Hyperion SMG, but the fire rates in SMG are much higher,  the magazines are generally much  (again going to get overlap with some Bandit style weapons) the reloads of much faster and because of that the DoT's tend to be higher. Effective range is completely different too. I agree that the shooting isn't as nice, but the gap that the stats afford make the lowest stuff harder to use than the higher stuff. It's like the shooting in Division, it's more RPG based whereas Destiny might as well just be a shooter with lots of guns,

When a pistol is firing mini rockets a Sniper is like a spread shotgun, shit starts to meld into one. I mean it's fun but it gets messy. I agree about the Division comparison and weapons improving. Destiny is a shooter with guns ? I keep saying that. That's the point it's a different beast. Doesn't have the complexity of Division or BL but it has enough their under its skin to be fun. It's not a shit puddle. 

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

That's the beauty of BL2, there's really something for everyone. When you hear people play and talk about how they built around a legendary that dropped that I also had and dropped because I didn't think much of it, only for them to go "Oh, if you give it to this class and do this, then you're going to have a good time" makes me realise that I was looking at that particular weapon wrong. When the game came out and you had all those consume 4 ammo shotguns that basically had one shot in them they made fuck all sense. Then suddenly the Mechromacer comes out and guess what? She loves to reload, each time she reloads she does more damage. Immediately those weapons that once looked shit are now something to keep an eye on if you fancy making a high burst DPS build with that particular class. It's looking at the guns and joining the dots to where they should be used, not like Destiny where you have this weapon now so it's time to dominate/cheese.

 

Again there's aspects of that in Destiny. A Titan with an AR and Actium Rigs uses them with much more potency. It's not as detailed as the others, but again, it's not into the RPG. Bit unfair by the way comparing a full on collection to one game. I mean yeah Destiny or this kind of game should be added to not really a sequel structure, but still. Also BL has a ways to go to do an MMO style looter. Don't proclaim too much. If and when BL 3 comes out and sorts this shit, then I'll join you. Not that it has to. Might stay in its intended genre.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Whatever, you're still grinding for the parts. Go play Warframe and look for the mods you need to make your guns and frame better. There's no less grind, you're just shifting the focus.

 

They probably will change it, they have to be doing something. It'll never be good enough though, since people want everything right this minute, they have no (Time and) patience.

 

Different grind. You remind me if my brother. You played Path of Exiles? Might make your bean pop. Free to play and he says it's better than Diablo.

 

Anyway, there's too much grinding in Warframe and waiting for shit to be available. Not my thing. Destiny doesn't need that but I do think they've been taking note on its mod system. We'll see.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

What you going to do if Borderlands 3 becomes top dog?

 

Depends what it offers and the competition. If it's like it is I'll play it in the lulls between content of whatever MMO lite I'm playing. If it's the best of all them at what they do I'll be top dog on it ?

 

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Don't bring a phone to a keyboard fight

?

[ThreeFour]

5 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

If you have time, I would like you to take a step back in time and play it if you can. I said it before and I'll say it again. In a time where we've had a few of these loot heavy shooters since BL2 came out, BL2 is still the best at handling certain aspects of the looter shooter.

Remembered you said this

 

I'll try. But you have to go back and play the content in Destiny properly. Not do campaign tickle about and fuck off ?

[Sly Reflex]

9 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

We've both said this and agreed before to some extent. You've got to respect tho Sly the fact it has a unique situation where anything dropped is viable in both. People like that aspect. Dropping a weapon in a strike and going 'eugh this is shit but ooo it might be good in PvP'. Loads of weapons, like the Malok, have been grinded for for that very purpose. To remove that aspect is to remove that grind. Right now in PvP the Claymore is sought after as it's potentially brilliant for PvE also. So while I agree something needs doing its not as simple as you proclaim.

 

You still have the grind for PvE stuff. Contrary to believe, people don't buy Destiny to play the PvP, it's just something that happens to be there. The main meat is the PvE and that's the side of the game the focus should be on. People are are always going to complain that the meta is fucked in PvP games nad having a loot system only impacts that. removing the randomness and having complete control over every single weapon in there would help to keep it on the level rather than one person finding a killer load out and then everyone grinding for it and turning the game into a mess.

 

9 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

It's a piece of piss to do on PS4. I've uploaded loads of my gameplay. Depends on your definition of impact. I mean the impact something has  is related to your enjoyment no? No doubt he's more powerful than normal but he's not clearing stuff out faster than examples I mentioned. Sith Lord is the king of red bar removal ? but again I seriously don't remember him being like that. Maybe full skill tree unlock and specced out but not early on which is why I asked for your gameplay as I assume you're talking first hand. I can concede it's a little more interesting than I remember but I still find Supers more impactful and interesting in D. Which is the crux of this thing.

 

I'm not in the position to do that right now, since we've only really just started. I can do it though, on the bosses where you have to mob to get through them quickly to be efficient I found him the best character to do that with. Having played both classes as well, they're actually quite similar, except the Gunzerker can extent his super duration through perks. Now I think about it the Psycho's super does the same thing as the Titan's void and solar moveset blended into one. The Assassin shares his skill with the Hunters grenade throw as well, except he gains increased damage in a risk vs reward since the longer he waits to strike the more damage he does, but at the risk of fluffing a shot or hit and messing the whole thing up.. Not saying BL2 did it first, since D&D exists and this is where those classes stem from. The super's being more interesting in Destiny? That's debatable. The supers in Destiny basically boil down to taking down a threat, with the exceptions of bubble and the tie down thing the Hunter has. They're there to throw DPS at a crowd or a single target and that's it. There's much more utility in the BL2 supers.

 

The Commando can throw his turret out for a bit more firepower and also use it as a tool to pull agro from himself. He can also use the turret to place between him and any 'raid boss' that nova spams to protect him from being blasted. In addition to this, he can use the turret as a direct attack by making the turret explode with a nuke via a longbow throw, which is like nova bombing I guess. In addition, his magnet perks allow him to longbow throw his turret into a position where it can hit enemies behind cover as well as distract enemies. His turret can be used to debuff enemies. He can throw 2 turrets as well. You can't have all of these at once, but it's interesting to build around the skill tree to see what works for the instance you're trying to do. Also, whenever the turret is out the Commando gets stronger in himself, like the Sunbro from D1.

 

The Siren can lock enemies into a bubble to keep them from moving around. Targets take increased damage while they are locked. Targets killed in the bubble grant health to the lowest health members in the party. Locking an enemy can grant health to the party while the lock is up. Converge pulls all the enemies close to the lock. The lock can be elementally charged causing any enemies in or near it to be  damaged by elements. Shooting enemies in the lock causes bullets to reflect onto enemies close by. The lock can be skilled out to move from target to target, doing all of the above over and over until it runs out. You can turn all this on its head by making the lock bring an enemy into your control and fighting for you for a short while.

 

The Gunzerker. I think we've already gone over this in our exchanges, but there's a lot more to his gunzerk than just running around with two guns. For one there's a lot of offhand mechanics. Knowing which guns to put where to get the best out of his super is crucial. Plus he has stuff like going down without losing his super, basically never running out of ammo the closer to death he is, making you sail as close to the wind as you dare go to try and proc moneyshot over and over to really ramp up the damage. No kill like overkill on something petty so that the next thing you hit obliterates into a puddle of blood. Going across to the next tree you have a lot of cooldown stuff going on that lets him spend more time firing with both guns instead of one, there's stuff there for accuracy increases and fire rate, as well as ignoring ammo consumption. Then you have the grenade perk which allows him to throw two grenades at once at the cost of one grenade, which is absolutely fucking mental because the grenades are actually good in BL2. Finally the longer you spend with the triggers down the faster you fire and the more accurate you get, up to a cap. The Gunzerker is basically the whole peek over the barrier while being buffed with the Sweet Business all rolled into one class. We're not done yet. Last tree. The lower your health is the more health regen you have, you can move quicker while gunzerking and as a last fuck you you can give the enemies the middle finger, regen all of your health, gain massive damage reduction and draw agro from them. 

 

People look and go, well that guy has 2 guns as a special, so he must be shit or boring. Well, no you just have to understand that there's more going on other than you doubling your firepower.

 

The Assassin. So the complexity doesn't really come from the skill itself, but it's more how you set it up. The rest of his perks rely on his invisibility and the boost from nearly letting it run out. Similar to the Gunzerker you're always sailing close to the wind, but in a very different way, since you're a glass cannon. There's no room for mistakes like the other classes, if you fuck up you're on the ground. If you think you're good at games, this is the guy you want. I can play him to some level, but some people are completely insane at him.

 

 

For reference that's the hardest standard you can go to with no OP levels. The moment he throws his super he's on a 5 second fuse before everything falls apart. It's one of the few times where 5 seconds can feel like an eternity and be gone in the blink of an eye.

 

Mecromancer. You press it and a robot flies about and hits stuff. It's more to do with tanking enemies that you can then shoot yourself and there's some other stuff, but that's the gist of this one. It tanks, takes a bit of agro and allows you to shoot. Not saying it's bad, but I'm not saying it's good either, unless you're very bad at games (it was dubbed girlfriend mode when ti came out). The real meat of Gaige lays in her Anarchy tree, but I'm not talking about that stuff unless it has super perks in them.

 

Psycho. Complete opposite way of playing melee from Zer0. Instead of avoiding damage completely you're int he face of the enemies you want to fuck up, your super being a thing you want to fire off when you're mag and shield are empty to get the best bonuses. Still a risk reward thing going on but it's so different in that you're actively trying to smash things up before your healthgate happens so you can continue it on. Think of it like chaining boosts in a Burnout game. The other trees are based around other stuff that buff him while he's doing his thing, mainly killing shit with explosions or setting himself on fire and getting stacks of buffs to tide him through a rampage.

 

When you compare those to the Destiny supers, which are basically press this, do a thing for a few seconds and then back to normal shooting. Yeah, they're fun. Yeah, they're potent. As game changing as the stuff in BL? No way.

 

11 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Certain grenades are better at walling of a waypoint or damage, certain playstyle again lean into what you're doing. Combine bottom tree on Nightstalker with Aspect legs for orbs, top tree on Golden gun with Nighthawk for damage etc etc. Not a dig but it doesn't sound like you put much investment into this. Which of course then leads to the puddle comments ?

 

The puddle comments come from the fact that these things you're talking about are obvious. Like it was obvious to use the Juju and Obsidian mind in D1 with a Voidbro because it's painted in the descriptions. It's not clever, you'd have to be a dunce not to realise these things. The stuff in Destiny is signposted in big bold letters because it thinks the community it's cultivating is retarded. I don't need to know shitting out orbs is a good thing for my team, I already know this. I find it a bit condescending on the games behalf, you get youtubers banging on that you can do so and so with x and y. Yes, I know, I didn't need you to tell me about that. I don't need help joining the dots when there's so few dots to join.

 

11 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

This is the issue with games like Division and Destiny. If you have high end content that requires team play and communication you need a team. Something BL will have to bear in mind if it does go down this route. It's not just sticking in social hubs. The game will funfementally play different. High end stuff you can't physically do on your own.

 

Agreed. Although originally those bosses you needed a team to take them on since they scaled to 4 players no matter how many people were in the game,. It wasn't until people got deeper and deeper into the game they realised that they could be taken on solo legitimately (not talking about the bee amp damage which was fucked in vanillla). I myself have beaten all but Voracidious solo. I have no idea how people manage to beat that cunt solo, I just cannot do it. All the others I've done though. You can watch people solo stuff that wasn't meant to be soloable. I've seen people solo the Incursions from TD and I've seen people solo the Crota raid walking backwards through the whole thing. People always find a way and that's why Bungie have basically made nigh on impossible for the raid to be done solo in D2. It's good to have things that need coordination between groups but you can go too far. There needs to be a bit of leeway for the people that want to be part of the raid but can't hold the brunt themselves. For instance in the 3rd raid in D1 where you have to jump the platforms when you go all ghost like, when it falls to the guy that's rubbish at jumping, that's just time wasted. You could say "We'll don't go in with that person", but if it's all you have to make a six up, then you have no choice. They have to be involving enough to keep the minds of the people that can do it, but also passive enough for the people that can't and are just there to shoot. Plus there's more interesting stuff they can do rather than just boss room after boss room where you have to do relays or fuck about standing on plates.

 

And this is where I mention WoW again. Bungie could learn so much from this game raid wise. Not everything has to be a slog, there needs to be downtime between areas. A puzzle here or there. Something nice to look at as you sit and wait for people to respec or get their house in order. Something better than having to do x or y because you need x to damage and y to prevent a wipe. Make the bosses actually interesting, provide a bit of lore and story as you're working your way towards them that's actually in game so that people can have something to do while they're exploring. Each dead end should have something interesting down there, a mini boss that might have a unique loot pool. It shouldn't be A > B > C it should be A > B1 > B2 > B > C, where the numbered letters are are optional break offs that can be done for extra loot or lore reasons, maybe as modifiers that make bosses or lootpools different further down the line. None of this token bullshit. Proper drops that are godly gear and guns for each specific class that are part of a set that make up something beautiful and powerful.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Meh I'd say they are. Nothing like them in a FPS before and Division proved how impressive they are and difficult to do properly. When the competition steps up then they won't be as impressive.

 

Nah. I wish you'd played WoW, you'd laugh at how shit some parts of them are. It's like prime steak and burgers. They're fisherprice raids, it might be the best on consoles but that automatically doesn't mean we should settle for it.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

When a pistol is firing mini rockets a Sniper is like a spread shotgun, shit starts to meld into one. I mean it's fun but it gets messy.

 

This goes back into the "Which class would get the best from this?" argument. There's barely any guns in that can't be used by any class in Destiny. You can just use it if you like it because they're basically doing the same shit. Some classes might get a boost from it (like I did with my beloved Juju) but overall. You look at soemthing like a pistol that can fire rockets (there's only one btw, The Logans Gun) and think, hey, this is firing rockets, that's interesting, I wonder if I could do this with that class? Oh it works, and because it does I can later my build around it and now this makes x, y and z weapons that I struggled to get the best out of now viable and fun to use.

 

Incidentally I dropped the Pitchfork last night, which is one of those snipers that hits like a shotgun (I think there's 2 or 3 in the game). Terrible for mobbing, but it wrecks bosses. And that's the application you use it for, it's like switching to the Gjally for bosses back in D1. You use the tools you have when the circumstance to use that tool arrives.

 

A lot of this goes back to when I talked about gun barrels. When I mentioned the Vladof barrel had a higher firerate on it, well each manufacturer has it's own perk. For instance the Torgue barrel will make an AR into a grenade launcher if the body of the gun is a Jakobs. If the body of the gun is a Vladof and the barrel is a Torgue, then you're going to get a rocket gun. Then suddenly we're back to the first paragraph from this quote, it's looking to see who could get the most from this weapon. It's not melding into one, it's getting complicated without you realising what's going on until you've learned what each part of the gun that specific drop is made from. It might seem random from an outside view, but again like I said, you get to a point where you see a weapon and already know if you want it or not.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Destiny is a shooter with guns ? I keep saying that

 

I know. And at this point we're already so deep that we're going to keep arguing.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

A Titan with an AR and Actium Rigs uses them with much more potency. It's not as detailed as the others, but again, it's not into the RPG.

 

The game should have more stuff like this. It's a class based bonus that no other class can strive for. It's actively making the Titan stronger at being able to fire for longer. Destiny might as well just be a shooter without mechanics like this.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

I mean yeah Destiny or this kind of game should be added to not really a sequel structure

 

I really have no idea why they didn't just build on. The amount of great content they threw away because of the decision to go full sequel was beyond dumb. I was hoping that they would have reskin everything into higher textures and give it away as a free update as a nice gesture to all the people that put up with D2's shit. Not going to happen though, this is Acti-bliz we're talking about.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Also BL has a ways to go to do an MMO style looter. Don't proclaim too much. If and when BL 3 comes out and sorts this shit, then I'll join you. Not that it has to. Might stay in its intended genre.

 

Hopefully it stays in the genre it occupies. I can see them adding daily stuff that auto generates or maybe some loyalty sign in bonus that can be spent somewhere, but hopefully they stay away from the MMO lite stuff because that requires them to dole out meagre rations week by week instead of giving you a banquet.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

there's too much grinding in Warframe and waiting for shit to be available. Not my thing. Destiny doesn't need that but I do think they've been taking note on its mod system. We'll see.

 

What you are saying with the mods is exactly the method Warframe uses. Each activity drops it's own mad cards, I think there's about 600 or something. Ignoring the waiting for stuff the Warframe way of modding far outweighs everything I think I've seen in gaming. Destiny's seems like an afterthought they patched in rather than having it from the very start of designing, but if they get it right that's a big step in the right direction. Still grinding though, don't kid yourself. If you're looking for a particular mod you've still to play until it drops. It could be worse, it could be better. You're not waiting out any clocks to do that, I understand you might not know that since you've not spent tons of time on it.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Depends what it offers and the competition. If it's like it is I'll play it in the lulls between content of whatever MMO lite I'm playing. If it's the best of all them at what they do I'll be top dog on it

 

That's fighting talk!

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

17 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

If you have time, I would like you to take a step back in time and play it if you can. I said it before and I'll say it again. In a time where we've had a few of these loot heavy shooters since BL2 came out, BL2 is still the best at handling certain aspects of the looter shooter.

Remembered you said this

 

I'll try. But you have to go back and play the content in Destiny properly. Not do campaign tickle about and fuck off

 

This is pretty impossible for me to do, since Destiny is always changing. I would like to go back and finish the raids off that I never did in D1 at some point just to say it's done. Same with The Division, I should really go back at some point to see if the changes are strong enough to make me change my mind.

 

12 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

18 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Don't bring a phone to a keyboard fight

?

 

I've done all this on keyboard and I exude the exact same feelings. 

[ThreeFour]

Fuck me Sly i'm going to have to take a day off and fire the PC up to reply to this shit ? can't you condense your waffling ? expect it in the am ?

[Hendo]

Please don’t.  

 

 

[ThreeFour]

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

You still have the grind for PvE stuff. Contrary to believe, people don't buy Destiny to play the PvP, it's just something that happens to be there. The main meat is the PvE and that's the side of the game the focus should be on. People are are always going to complain that the meta is fucked in PvP games nad having a loot system only impacts that. removing the randomness and having complete control over every single weapon in there would help to keep it on the level rather than one person finding a killer load out and then everyone grinding for it and turning the game into a mess.

 

contrary to belief? come on man. your belief? people do buy stuff for differing reasons. I for a fact buy CoD or Battlefield for the PvP. Some on here I bet buy them for PvE/campaign. same with Destiny. I know two personally that main PvP. Some on twitch do. They'll experience PvE stuff but concentrate on the PvP. Bungie have a heritage with PvP and so they'll protect that. sometimes poorly, but still. Why do you think the change to two primaries was done in the first place? Because a large portion of the audience do PvP and it was a way to combat the snipe/shotgun meta that had developed. we all know that was a wrong choice and something needs doing, but cutting it off I'm not sure is the answer. It is a looter and it does have a place in PvP. When its sorted it will be copied by others. Such a good system extending a game beyond the PvE stuff.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

I'm not in the position to do that right now, since we've only really just started.

 

Kinda my point. It's not something so great from the off. late game stuff is really good but early on a bit meh which was the lasting memory I had.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

I can do it though, on the bosses where you have to mob to get through them quickly to be efficient I found him the best character to do that with. Having played both classes as well, they're actually quite similar, except the Gunzerker can extent his super duration through perks. Now I think about it the Psycho's super does the same thing as the Titan's void and solar moveset blended into one. The Assassin shares his skill with the Hunters grenade throw as well, except he gains increased damage in a risk vs reward since the longer he waits to strike the more damage he does, but at the risk of fluffing a shot or hit and messing the whole thing up.. Not saying BL2 did it first, since D&D exists and this is where those classes stem from. The super's being more interesting in Destiny? That's debatable. The supers in Destiny basically boil down to taking down a threat, with the exceptions of bubble and the tie down thing the Hunter has. They're there to throw DPS at a crowd or a single target and that's it. There's much more utility in the BL2 supers.

 

Kinda disagree. There's more utility In Destiny than you let on. Certain supers debuff, some are for damage, some for crowd control, some for distraction. I'm not here to compare dicks with BL, it's a fine game, It's your lack of understanding of Destiny and the reason I disagree with your disparagement of it.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

When you compare those to the Destiny supers, which are basically press this, do a thing for a few seconds and then back to normal shooting. Yeah, they're fun. Yeah, they're potent. As game changing as the stuff in BL? No way.

 

You see that video posted was very one note. I don't find that kind of thing as exciting as you. Just the same spammy attack throughout. You say these are tactical, and i'm not disagreeing necessarily, but I wonder if you ever at all talk and combine it with your mates or you just doing you're own thing spamming your attacks and supers (Obviously you're going to say yes). You can do anything in borderlands on your own. I was watching a guy on Twitch earlier just running the raid bosses on his own. Team work isn't a necessity and so it isn't as important. That's why there's loads on singular builds but no epic team plays out there as the boss fights don't really require it when you just spam them down in a hail of gunfire etc. The raids in Destiny are for more engaging to watch and be involved in because of that. I'd like to see what a BL game would be like doing its own raid encounters and really dial up that team aspect.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

The puddle comments come from the fact that these things you're talking about are obvious. Like it was obvious to use the Juju and Obsidian mind in D1 with a Voidbro because it's painted in the descriptions. It's not clever, you'd have to be a dunce not to realise these things. The stuff in Destiny is signposted in big bold letters because it thinks the community it's cultivating is retarded. I don't need to know shitting out orbs is a good thing for my team, I already know this. I find it a bit condescending on the games behalf, you get youtubers banging on that you can do so and so with x and y. Yes, I know, I didn't need you to tell me about that. I don't need help joining the dots when there's so few dots to join.

 

So obvious I don't believe your understanding of it. You played it like 7 months ago so I cant put it down to memory loss. I'm not saying it's super deep but it does have a decent element to it. You describe the most basic of blends and uses. which is fine if you didn't get that invested in it. People are coming up with new ways to do stuff all the time. I think I should take you through a raid sometime and run through some stuff. Though shit could be about to change so much I'm a newb again.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

Agreed. Although originally those bosses you needed a team to take them on since they scaled to 4 players no matter how many people were in the game,. It wasn't until people got deeper and deeper into the game they realised that they could be taken on solo legitimately (not talking about the bee amp damage which was fucked in vanillla). I myself have beaten all but Voracidious solo. I have no idea how people manage to beat that cunt solo, I just cannot do it. All the others I've done though. You can watch people solo stuff that wasn't meant to be soloable. I've seen people solo the Incursions from TD and I've seen people solo the Crota raid walking backwards through the whole thing. People always find a way and that's why Bungie have basically made nigh on impossible for the raid to be done solo in D2. It's good to have things that need coordination between groups but you can go too far. There needs to be a bit of leeway for the people that want to be part of the raid but can't hold the brunt themselves. For instance in the 3rd raid in D1 where you have to jump the platforms when you go all ghost like, when it falls to the guy that's rubbish at jumping, that's just time wasted. You could say "We'll don't go in with that person", but if it's all you have to make a six up, then you have no choice. They have to be involving enough to keep the minds of the people that can do it, but also passive enough for the people that can't and are just there to shoot. Plus there's more interesting stuff they can do rather than just boss room after boss room where you have to do relays or fuck about standing on plates.

 

BL is largely more accepting of soloing shit being the game that it is. Sloing a raid in D1 was nigh on impossible for 99% of the playerbase and that's utlilising glitches or level design flaws. There used to be leeways. like sword guy on Crota. but they wanted people to be more involved in the raid so made some changes to get people to try. It's much more rewarding getting involved rather being a pleb getting carried. I mean I get your side on making it more accessible for people, it's an ongoing debate with this game - one which others all will come across if they implement this level of stuff, but its a high end activity. some times you just got to git gud. I've taken people through a raid and watched them do things they thought they couldn't do. There's not much else like that feeling in FPS/3rd games. like you cant dumb it down so a tam of rando newbs can do it. Ruins the whole thing. The issue is in-game matchmaking of somekind or utilize an LFG site. I've done it all. you make friends and soon have a regular team.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

And this is where I mention WoW again. Bungie could learn so much from this game raid wise. Not everything has to be a slog, there needs to be downtime between areas. A puzzle here or there. Something nice to look at as you sit and wait for people to respec or get their house in order. Something better than having to do x or y because you need x to damage and y to prevent a wipe. Make the bosses actually interesting, provide a bit of lore and story as you're working your way towards them that's actually in game so that people can have something to do while they're exploring. Each dead end should have something interesting down there, a mini boss that might have a unique loot pool. It shouldn't be A > B > C it should be A > B1 > B2 > B > C, where the numbered letters are are optional break offs that can be done for extra loot or lore reasons, maybe as modifiers that make bosses or lootpools different further down the line. None of this token bullshit. Proper drops that are godly gear and guns for each specific class that are part of a set that make up something beautiful and powerful.

 

I thought you mentioned you didn't want to wait for people to respect? Anyway. I mean they literally have those aspects to some degree. Jumping puzzles to break up the fights, little basketball style court in Kings Fall raid, secrets to uncover like the Outbreak Prime weapon - that was such a cool community puzzle to work out. hidden meaning on some random monitors that lead to a hidden weapon in the raid. I like the idea of a hidden dungeon bos kinds thing with unique loot. Always room to develop. You got to understand though raids are hard to develop. They're a big time sink. If it was easy they'd be in all these looters.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

Nah. I wish you'd played WoW, you'd laugh at how shit some parts of them are. It's like prime steak and burgers. They're fisherprice raids, it might be the best on consoles but that automatically doesn't mean we should settle for it.

 

Again with the disparagement. like you are the only one who thinks that. I mean fine if you think that but what's your reference. WoW and....  There isn't any. Yeah WoW is the guage to measure but like I said earlier you'd struggle to get that in an FPS/3rd and even if you could who'd have time for it? Come back when it happens and we'll rejoice.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

This goes back into the "Which class would get the best from this?" argument. There's barely any guns in that can't be used by any class in Destiny. You can just use it if you like it because they're basically doing the same shit. Some classes might get a boost from it (like I did with my beloved Juju) but overall. You look at soemthing like a pistol that can fire rockets (there's only one btw, The Logans Gun) and think, hey, this is firing rockets, that's interesting, I wonder if I could do this with that class? Oh it works, and because it does I can later my build around it and now this makes x, y and z weapons that I struggled to get the best out of now viable and fun to use.

 

Incidentally I dropped the Pitchfork last night, which is one of those snipers that hits like a shotgun (I think there's 2 or 3 in the game). Terrible for mobbing, but it wrecks bosses. And that's the application you use it for, it's like switching to the Gjally for bosses back in D1. You use the tools you have when the circumstance to use that tool arrives.

 

A lot of this goes back to when I talked about gun barrels. When I mentioned the Vladof barrel had a higher firerate on it, well each manufacturer has it's own perk. For instance the Torgue barrel will make an AR into a grenade launcher if the body of the gun is a Jakobs. If the body of the gun is a Vladof and the barrel is a Torgue, then you're going to get a rocket gun. Then suddenly we're back to the first paragraph from this quote, it's looking to see who could get the most from this weapon. It's not melding into one, it's getting complicated without you realising what's going on until you've learned what each part of the gun that specific drop is made from. It might seem random from an outside view, but again like I said, you get to a point where you see a weapon and already know if you want it or not.

 

It's not that they don't have a use It's back to my argument In a shooter I like a weapon to behave as intended. Not make an AR a grenade launcher. Like there's CoD and there's Serious Sam. I can get enjoyment out of these FPS but I have a preference and BL I find messy. You can get weapons close to that in BL if you want but that goes against the nature of the game.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

I know. And at this point we're already so deep that we're going to keep arguing.

 

Just keep it smaller

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

The game should have more stuff like this. It's a class based bonus that no other class can strive for. It's actively making the Titan stronger at being able to fire for longer. Destiny might as well just be a shooter without mechanics like this.

 

Agreed! Holy shit

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

I really have no idea why they didn't just build on. The amount of great content they threw away because of the decision to go full sequel was beyond dumb. I was hoping that they would have reskin everything into higher textures and give it away as a free update as a nice gesture to all the people that put up with D2's shit. Not going to happen though, this is Acti-bliz we're talking about.

 

Again!

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

Hopefully it stays in the genre it occupies. I can see them adding daily stuff that auto generates or maybe some loyalty sign in bonus that can be spent somewhere, but hopefully they stay away from the MMO lite stuff because that requires them to dole out meagre rations week by week instead of giving you a banquet.

 

Third time! We're on a roll

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

What you are saying with the mods is exactly the method Warframe uses. Each activity drops it's own mad cards, I think there's about 600 or something. Ignoring the waiting for stuff the Warframe way of modding far outweighs everything I think I've seen in gaming. Destiny's seems like an afterthought they patched in rather than having it from the very start of designing, but if they get it right that's a big step in the right direction. Still grinding though, don't kid yourself. If you're looking for a particular mod you've still to play until it drops. It could be worse, it could be better. You're not waiting out any clocks to do that, I understand you might not know that since you've not spent tons of time on it.

 

Nearly a full agree. I know about the WF Mod's which is why I was excited when I heard D2 would be bringing them in to some degree. Of course they know about stuff in other looters they want to implement. But it does feel, like you say, that its a late development. I've been waiting for the improvements as I believe it could be key for Destiny.

 

It's pretty much unanimous, whether you prefer Destiny or WF, that WF has more of that classic grind looters come with. Especially being it's F2P. Destiny there is practically no grind. Kinda one of it's faults. Needs more stuff like they had in D1 to grind for. It's very giving though. like, you can get pretty much everything in a couple of months. I bet you're nowhere near that in WF. The mods will drop plenty and regular enough.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

That's fighting talk!

 

Bring it!

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

This is pretty impossible for me to do, since Destiny is always changing. I would like to go back and finish the raids off that I never did in D1 at some point just to say it's done. Same with The Division, I should really go back at some point to see if the changes are strong enough to make me change my mind.

 

Kinda me with BL2 as there so much else I'd rather play, and I don't even have time for those.

 

I'd definitely give Division another go. It's still not my cup of tea but I can appreciate the changes made.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

I've done all this on keyboard and I exude the exact same feelings. 

I feel ill

[ThreeFour]

1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Please don’t.  

 

 

This is some deep stuff. You all should listen to the wise men talking.

[Sly Reflex]

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

contrary to belief? come on man. your belief? people do buy stuff for differing reasons. I for a fact buy CoD or Battlefield for the PvP. Some on here I bet buy them for PvE/campaign. same with Destiny. I know two personally that main PvP. Some on twitch do. They'll experience PvE stuff but concentrate on the PvP. Bungie have a heritage with PvP and so they'll protect that. sometimes poorly, but still. Why do you think the change to two primaries was done in the first place? Because a large portion of the audience do PvP and it was a way to combat the snipe/shotgun meta that had developed. we all know that was a wrong choice and something needs doing, but cutting it off I'm not sure is the answer. It is a looter and it does have a place in PvP. When its sorted it will be copied by others. Such a good system extending a game beyond the PvE stuff.

 

The last IB that happened it was about 50/50 split, but for the most that split is heavily heavily skewed towards the PvE part of the game. There's people that don't even bother with the PvP at all. All you see on places like Reddit whenever something was nerfed because of PvP is people moaning that the shit they had is no longer working as it should in PvE because of it. So yeah, they're a minority, a tiny minority. I knew people that PvP'd You know why? Because it was a way to get an engram. Not because they wanted to be there, it's because they wanted the goods. You shouldn't have to do that to encourage people to play your game. In fact having those people in the game is quite damaging. To loosely quote Jeff Kaplan from the Overwatch team "We wish we never put the gold skins in competitive, because the people want them, but they don't want the competitive game mode where things are on the line and it's spoiling other peoples enjoyment".

 

The two primaries thing was done to get rid of the meta you mentioned, but also appeal to the esports. That was Bungie's aim, but it backfired.

 

I'm in no way saying get rid of it, but have it isolated from the main game

 

Also, just because someone did something good once means they're good forever. You're as good as your last hit.

 

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

Kinda my point. It's not something so great from the off. late game stuff is really good but early on a bit meh which was the lasting memory I had.

 

Which is what I was saying with the whole gap between the start of the game with the guns and the end of the game. There's a noticeable difference. The Detiny stuff doesn't change, it's starts off as it ends off. And that's fine. You said it didn't have impact. Yeah, it does. Ask the people I'm playing with how much difference it makes when I do the Gunzerking. The difference is very notice, so your point is broken there.

 

1 hour ago, ThreeFour said:

It's your lack of understanding of Destiny and the reason I disagree with your disparagement of it.

 

OK. I disagree with this, I understand it. It might not be as deep as your understanding, but I'm not oblivious to how stuff works. It's just not as deep as you would have people believe.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

You say these are tactical, and i'm not disagreeing necessarily, but I wonder if you ever at all talk and combine it with your mates or you just doing you're own thing spamming your attacks and supers (Obviously you're going to say yes)

 

This depends. It can be a free for all, but then again in Destiny it can be a free for all. There's definitely moments where someone will say "I'm going to do this" and people riff off it. For instance if someone is down you might lock a target for them that's close so they can get back up. Tonight I was playing the Assassin and I was calling out targets that I had lined up for headshots, as well as tagging strong enemies to get them debuffed for my mate to easier take down. Of course I do that in Destiny too, if you've ever played with us in a group game between us slagging off Small we're all talking about doing our stuff. Team based games are always like that. Doesn't matter what we're playing, that's just how it is.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

You can do anything in borderlands on your own. I was watching a guy on Twitch earlier just running the raid bosses on his own.

 

Go do it, it's harder than it looks. It goes back the the sentence I said in the last post where people have worked out very specific ways to do things. You've got to remember that not everyone is of the skill you just said. I doubt the people I play with could do it. That's not degrading them in anyway, because those mobs are meant to be taken on in a party of 4 that are armed to the teeth.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

The raids in Destiny are for more engaging to watch and be involved in because of that.

 

Walking around plates or whatever to make a boss be able to take damage isn't the second coming. That's just your opinion that it's better. That's like saying rugby isn't interesting because I like football. It's interesting to a certain sect of people.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

I think I should take you through a raid sometime and run through some stuff.

 

I might take you up on this at some point.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

BL is largely more accepting of soloing shit being the game that it is. Sloing a raid in D1 was nigh on impossible for 99% of the playerbase

 

For the base game, yeah, you're right. The raids? Nah, again out of all the people that played less than 1% of people playing BL will have soloed a raid boss without exploiting some glitches. Again it's those savants that find ways to exploit and jimmy the mechanics of the game to be able to do these feats, they're working out you can do that not on the bits we see as a FPS and a UI, but as a bit of code that has equations and all that working maths out that cause the numbers to topple.

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

There used to be leeways. like sword guy on Crota. but they wanted people to be more involved in the raid so made some changes to get people to try. It's much more rewarding getting involved rather being a pleb getting carried. I mean I get your side on making it more accessible for people, it's an ongoing debate with this game - one which others all will come across if they implement this level of stuff, but its a high end activity.

 

I totally agree. I don't want to be stood about while people do the more involved bits, I want to be balls deep in it. The problem is you've got to remember that some people just can't do that. I don't mind them putting other things in where they have to be occupied, I don't want to be stood around while someone else is having the fun, but I also don't want to put so much pressure on someone even with the easiest tasks struggle to cope. People sit into an archetype even in real life, some are leaders, some are brash, others are confident and quiet. Some are shy and retiring or even clumsy. You can't suddenly tell part of the group that they're out because of that. It's the person that doesn't cut it decision to know when they're holding back the team. If you are part of a group that doesn't have that section of players, then that's great, it's one less problem to worry about. 

 

It's interesting to look and see how many players have actually beat a raid. It currently stands at 21% on PSN. Even after all the jumps in power and stuff just above 1/5th  of players have seen their way to the end of a raid, the best content in the game (some would argue). It's probably a combination of things that stop that number from being higher. Difficulty is one, having people on to smash through it is another and having time to sit through it is another. The solution to making that number higher? Maybe drop the difficulty in certain parts that cause wipes that shouldn't be wiping and add matchmaking. There's no shame ibn going back and saying "yeah, this is wrong, we fucked it up and we'll change it."

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

I thought you mentioned you didn't want to wait for people to respect? Anyway. I mean they literally have those aspects to some degree. Jumping puzzles to break up the fights, little basketball style court in Kings Fall raid, secrets to uncover like the Outbreak Prime weapon - that was such a cool community puzzle to work out. hidden meaning on some random monitors that lead to a hidden weapon in the raid. I like the idea of a hidden dungeon bos kinds thing with unique loot. Always room to develop. You got to understand though raids are hard to develop. They're a big time sink. If it was easy they'd be in all these looters.

 

I'm been forced to wait, I might as well have something to do. Sort of have lost sectors or something where a few people that are ready can go in and run over before the rest of the people are ready. Doesn't have to be gruelling, it just has to take a load off for a bit comparatively

 

I know raids are hard to develop.That's why they reuse ideas and stuff in the ones we have, because coming up with interesting stuff is difficult..

 

2 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Again with the disparagement. like you are the only one who thinks that. I mean fine if you think that but what's your reference. WoW and....  There isn't any. Yeah WoW is the guage to measure but like I said earlier you'd struggle to get that in an FPS/3rd and even if you could who'd have time for it? Come back when it happens and we'll rejoice.

 

As a gamer who has experience both, those WoW ones are off the fucking chain. I look at gaming as a whole and I don't buy the "Ah, it's OK because they're consoles" because it's a bit condescending to people that only play on consoles. There's nothing really there with mechanics or locations that couldn't be done, it's more to do with making something that's fun to play that's engaging for 6 players.

 

Here's an anecdote about GTAV heists (basically raids split into missions). A lot of them sort of split up your team to go different things in part of the city. Sometimes half the job is completely redundant, a chimp could finish it. It's boring as fuck if you end up doing that when you'd rather be doing the more interesting stuff. However, we're back to the jobs for all levels of players. Walking into a police station after stealing a police car and getting some notes and then burning a police car in a secluded place isn't as mad as fighting your way onto a cargo ship to steal a classic car and drive it up  the county while being chased by scores of police.

 

WoW is the the yardstick. That's why it gets brought up so much. Plenty have tried BL and TD as well as GTA have had their own end game raid stuff, but none of them have managed to beat WoW. You saying that is like saying "We've only got one ruler so we're not measuring it!"

 

3 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

It's not that they don't have a use It's back to my argument In a shooter I like a weapon to behave as intended. Not make an AR a grenade launcher. Like there's CoD and there's Serious Sam. I can get enjoyment out of these FPS but I have a preference and BL I find messy. You can get weapons close to that in BL if you want but that goes against the nature of the game.

 

I get it. The weapons you're referring to are Dahl weapons and most people think they're boring as fuck. I don't mind them myself, everything has its place. I don't mind the out there ones or the more vanilla ones. I wish there were more out there guns in Destiny, even if all they did was look anything but a traditional gun. Stuff like the Stimulant or the Mythoclast or Nercrochasm. Not everything has to have the traditional gun looks. You have a scifi setting, run with it!

 

3 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Third time! We're on a roll 

 

Better hit rate than a broken clock. Go us! 

 

3 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Nearly a full agree. I know about the WF Mod's which is why I was excited when I heard D2 would be bringing them in to some degree. Of course they know about stuff in other looters they want to implement. But it does feel, like you say, that its a late development. I've been waiting for the improvements as I believe it could be key for Destiny.

 

It's pretty much unanimous, whether you prefer Destiny or WF, that WF has more of that classic grind looters come with. Especially being it's F2P. Destiny there is practically no grind. Kinda one of it's faults. Needs more stuff like they had in D1 to grind for. It's very giving though. like, you can get pretty much everything in a couple of months. I bet you're nowhere near that in WF. The mods will drop plenty and regular enough.

 

I think the worst thing about Destiny 2 was the inclusion of the vendor. They put so much effort into making her have a full inventory an they did it by stripping out the rest of the game. I remember when I first booted up the game and I was playing alone and someone (Soundwave, you might remember him from g™?) joined my game wearing Chatterwhite and had this awesome ship. I was like, damn, I need that shit, so I worked towards it and got it. That was the cool thing about it, if I saw something I knew that person had earned it. I saw someone with an Icebreaker on their back and I'd inspect them just to have a closer look at it. I was envious that someone in my crew had a Black Spindle. I had friends that would wait for me to get on because I had a Vision of Confluence and I could beast the Nightfall with it.

 

Those feelings have been completely lost mainly because of the way they've handled the game. I don't want tokens. I want full sets of armour that I can work towards that have interesting properties. Playing and maybe getting stuff on a level up isn't satisfying, nor when I look and see people with cool stuff does it feel like they've worked for it.

 

There's a lot I really dislike about how they've handled D2. They've promised to sort it out and they've taken steps towards it, but now it's looking like another dole out of money to get what we should have had in the first place. I think promises are easy too, it's easy to make a promise, it's keeping it that's the real challenge. We're not going to know if they've hit it until it comes around.

 

3 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Kinda me with BL2 as there so much else I'd rather play, and I don't even have time for those.

 

I'd definitely give Division another go. It's still not my cup of tea but I can appreciate the changes made.

 

You can play BL2 because it's still there, it's always going to be there. Aside from a few perk re balances it's as is. I can't play Division as it was simply because it doesn't exist. It's same as something like No Man's Sky. The version that got panned no longer exists. Destiny and Destiny 2 are in the same boat (although D1 will be less rockier since it was sorted out and a nice game too boot when I left it). D2 will get better, I've said it before here and elsewhere, it looking outwards not only to other games that have done stuff better (including it's own game) as well as looking at feedback akin to how Division ironed out a lot of it's own shit. A fool learns from his own mistakes and a wise man learns from other springs to mind. Hopefully Bungie are smart enough to realise that.

 

3 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

I feel ill

 

Not ill, but tired as fuck. Need bed.

 

4 hours ago, Hendo said:

Please don’t.  

 

We're having a polite discussion here, stop derailing, you troll.

[ThreeFour]

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

The last IB that happened it was about 50/50 split, but for the most that split is heavily heavily skewed towards the PvE part of the game. There's people that don't even bother with the PvP at all. All you see on places like Reddit whenever something was nerfed because of PvP is people moaning that the shit they had is no longer working as it should in PvE because of it. So yeah, they're a minority, a tiny minority. I knew people that PvP'd You know why? Because it was a way to get an engram. Not because they wanted to be there, it's because they wanted the goods. You shouldn't have to do that to encourage people to play your game. In fact having those people in the game is quite damaging. To loosely quote Jeff Kaplan from the Overwatch team "We wish we never put the gold skins in competitive, because the people want them, but they don't want the competitive game mode where things are on the line and it's spoiling other peoples enjoyment".

 

The two primaries thing was done to get rid of the meta you mentioned, but also appeal to the esports. That was Bungie's aim, but it backfired.

 

I'm in no way saying get rid of it, but have it isolated from the main game

 

Also, just because someone did something good once means they're good forever. You're as good as your last hit.

 

You'll find that at the weekends with PvPers doing trials. At the start of the week everyone's getting their milestones done. Then It shifts into where people want to play. Numbers will fluctuate depending on the time of week and what event is running. It was said if they were to pull a number its like 30-40% of the playerbase on average as a whole. Destiny is a game designed around doing what you want to do. You can level up and grind for loot in PvP just same as someone playing PvE. There's activities for both. They wouldn't bother catering to it if no one was playing it. Of course people will complain if something effects negatively in their game environment, and by its nature PvP will affect PvE more. It was exacerbated in D1 as they claimed they couldn't affect each gun individually - which apparently is different now. The people you know who just wanted the Call to Arms engram are also probably some of those that don't really do raids etc. The kind of players that do the campaign and get lost in what to do. There's numbers for each kind of player. I'm a competitive PvP player which i'm not sure you are. In D1 3% of the playerbase ever completed a raid. that's abysmal numbers but the argument is not to nerf it but have a better matchmaking system for rando's. Something guided games was an attempt but epic fail.

 

the esports thing is a community theory. They (Bungie) never said they were and any competitive player knows the bare minimum you need is dedicated servers and 60fps+ to even begin to take it seriously. Maybe if it took off on PC they might have gone the extra step, but things are nowhere near that. They want to make PvP more competitive to their inhouse players, but they're still finding their feet. The new ranking system introduced is another layer. They kinda need to tweak its ranking criteria though. Doesn't mean you give up, or nothing is ever achieved. a PvP looter is something of a rarity and a feather in your cap once working. To isolate it is to fundementaly change it.

 

All this is something of moot point right now as PvP isn't in its best place. On PC its basically dead as fuck. Hopefully this Expansion puts things to right.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

Which is what I was saying with the whole gap between the start of the game with the guns and the end of the game. There's a noticeable difference. The Detiny stuff doesn't change, it's starts off as it ends off. And that's fine. You said it didn't have impact. Yeah, it does. Ask the people I'm playing with how much difference it makes when I do the Gunzerking. The difference is very notice, so your point is broken there.

 

Which is why I said impactful in my throwing stuff out of my memory comment initially. Destiny it's there straight away. I go through the entire game, mostly, with that at my disposal. I'm pretty sure from memory, I start up BL2 it will be a while till I unlock all the points and obtain the gear to even begin to be as epic as the videos. Which is why you wont prove me wrong on your own character yes? Instead post me videos of specced out guys. I mean its a bit of fun we're only debating.  

 

I didn't say it wasn't noticeable to others. Initially I said I don't remember it being as epic or impactful as you make out. Which is what we're establishing here. My early level Titan will be more epic than your early spurt Gunzerker  later on it may be different the level of impact it affects its own game, but anyway. Rambling.

 

But who cares it doesn't matter. One prefers the other. I took offense to you wading in with your big gob () making outlandish statements about D1. by your own statement just there it absolutely is noticeable depending what classes are with you in high end activities especially. Not having a Warlock putting down an empowering rift is so noticeable in the 30% damage loss you could have had. I figured out how to get a rift on every plate on Calus. No ones posted a video on that strat. well, not then anyway. It's not super deep but its there, useful in that instance. Pointless on Dogs. Not having a Hunter Tether is so noticeable in its absence when controlling mobs and generating orbs. Like it may not be at the level of BL, no one saying it isn't, but fly out with comments its a puddle. I Mean would anyone really miss a Gunzerker to the same degree?

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

OK. I disagree with this, I understand it. It might not be as deep as your understanding, but I'm not oblivious to how stuff works. It's just not as deep as you would have people believe.

 

I'm not saying it's deep. Pretty sure there's a comment there somewhere saying exactly that. I'm saying it's better than you make out. It's good enough for what Destiny is. It doesn't lean heavy into the RPG aspects, It's a shooter primarily, so you making out it's not as deep as BL2 isn't really a negative. It's a different game.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

This depends. It can be a free for all, but then again in Destiny it can be a free for all. There's definitely moments where someone will say "I'm going to do this" and people riff off it. For instance if someone is down you might lock a target for them that's close so they can get back up. Tonight I was playing the Assassin and I was calling out targets that I had lined up for headshots, as well as tagging strong enemies to get them debuffed for my mate to easier take down. Of course I do that in Destiny too, if you've ever played with us in a group game between us slagging off Small we're all talking about doing our stuff. Team based games are always like that. Doesn't matter what we're playing, that's just how it is.

 

Destiny is yeah until you hit The Prestige nightfall or Raid. Like if you're a Titan and the situation requires a bubble for distraction - That's what you're doing. No Free for all shit or you're kicked

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

Go do it, it's harder than it looks. It goes back the the sentence I said in the last post where people have worked out very specific ways to do things. You've got to remember that not everyone is of the skill you just said. I doubt the people I play with could do it. That's not degrading them in anyway, because those mobs are meant to be taken on in a party of 4 that are armed to the teeth.

 

Ho ho I seriously want to but I'm busy with other games. I so want BL3 to come out so I can show you shit when its fresh in both our minds. I remember you saying Nergigante was hard and it took the third fight before he even killed me once. That's not meant to degrade you in anyway but I get the feeling our views on possibility and difficulty are skewed somewhat.

 

But anyway, the point is that's within the game to do that. it's designed that way. You get stronger and better builds the more you gain. Outside of breaking the game on early raids, you will not, absolutely not, even at the highest level, fully specced, do a raid on you're own in Destiny. Hell even with a full team of Rando's not communicating. It's key in a game like this. Absolutely essential. Something BL will have to take into account if it wants to step into this realm with Destiny. I'd like to see it though.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

Walking around plates or whatever to make a boss be able to take damage isn't the second coming. That's just your opinion that it's better. That's like saying rugby isn't interesting because I like football. It's interesting to a certain sect of people.

 

Kinda like impact a Gunzerker might have on someone? I mean this personal opinion shit can be applied to our whole debate. I'm genuinely surprised your idea a BL raid boss is akin to a Destiny Raid or that Destiny raids aint all that. I mean I know you've more experience of WoW than me, but you got to put shit into perspective - they're totally different games. Closest thing is Division and i'd say it shits on it in that area.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

For the base game, yeah, you're right. The raids? Nah, again out of all the people that played less than 1% of people playing BL will have soloed a raid boss without exploiting some glitches. Again it's those savants that find ways to exploit and jimmy the mechanics of the game to be able to do these feats, they're working out you can do that not on the bits we see as a FPS and a UI, but as a bit of code that has equations and all that working maths out that cause the numbers to topple.

 

Again I've visibly watched people do it to pass the time. I see no exploitation other than skill and knowing the best builds.Which I respect in this game. You know, Division has it. To be a Glass cannon mutha and shred the shit out of stuff you have to spec into it. A bit too much fucking about for me so it puts me off.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

I totally agree. I don't want to be stood about while people do the more involved bits, I want to be balls deep in it. The problem is you've got to remember that some people just can't do that. I don't mind them putting other things in where they have to be occupied, I don't want to be stood around while someone else is having the fun, but I also don't want to put so much pressure on someone even with the easiest tasks struggle to cope. People sit into an archetype even in real life, some are leaders, some are brash, others are confident and quiet. Some are shy and retiring or even clumsy. You can't suddenly tell part of the group that they're out because of that. It's the person that doesn't cut it decision to know when they're holding back the team. If you are part of a group that doesn't have that section of players, then that's great, it's one less problem to worry about. 

 

It's interesting to look and see how many players have actually beat a raid. It currently stands at 21% on PSN. Even after all the jumps in power and stuff just above 1/5th  of players have seen their way to the end of a raid, the best content in the game (some would argue). It's probably a combination of things that stop that number from being higher. Difficulty is one, having people on to smash through it is another and having time to sit through it is another. The solution to making that number higher? Maybe drop the difficulty in certain parts that cause wipes that shouldn't be wiping and add matchmaking. There's no shame ibn going back and saying "yeah, this is wrong, we fucked it up and we'll change it."

 

I've done all the raids a few times and I've even taken people of low skill through some. Hell I've been nervous doing stuff (relic run on Oryyx in Kings fall. the floaty platforms. stupid floofy warlock jump ) but you got to practice and you'll get better. Again you've got to spec your build to do shit better. You cant lower the difficulty though. It's a high end activity. you gain levels and gear till you are ready and go. If you really can't play with others it's something you'll have to miss out on. Life's not easy, do better or accept failure. It would undermine the effort and reward of the gear (stop laughing). The gear should be the drive to want to do it and do whatever is necessary.

 

By it's team based nature its pretty hard to not only get 6 people, but to then all have the time availability and gear, and skill, and personality to work well as a team....that's a lot of hurdles. Matchmaking wont solve this problem. You'll get Randoms of varying qualities. Some wont even have a mic or want to communicate. I don't even waste my time with those now. It needs an integrated LFG (looking for) system. showing you what you are, what your looking to do, who should apply etc. add a better guided/Sherpa system and reward people for guiding. 

 

Once you done it a few times it's so much easier and generally done in 45-60 minutes.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

I know raids are hard to develop.That's why they reuse ideas and stuff in the ones we have, because coming up with interesting stuff is difficult..

 

Cut it some slack then

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

As a gamer who has experience both, those WoW ones are off the fucking chain. I look at gaming as a whole and I don't buy the "Ah, it's OK because they're consoles" because it's a bit condescending to people that only play on consoles. There's nothing really there with mechanics or locations that couldn't be done, it's more to do with making something that's fun to play that's engaging for 6 players.

 

Here's an anecdote about GTAV heists (basically raids split into missions). A lot of them sort of split up your team to go different things in part of the city. Sometimes half the job is completely redundant, a chimp could finish it. It's boring as fuck if you end up doing that when you'd rather be doing the more interesting stuff. However, we're back to the jobs for all levels of players. Walking into a police station after stealing a police car and getting some notes and then burning a police car in a secluded place isn't as mad as fighting your way onto a cargo ship to steal a classic car and drive it up  the county while being chased by scores of police.

 

WoW is the the yardstick. That's why it gets brought up so much. Plenty have tried BL and TD as well as GTA have had their own end game raid stuff, but none of them have managed to beat WoW. You saying that is like saying "We've only got one ruler so we're not measuring it!"

 

You just acknowledged previous they're hard to develop. Or you forget. Of all the competition Destiny has the best raids. I think that's unanimous. But even they with the size of their team, they struggle to do full on regular raids. You notice we don't get full on Raids now? it's Raid lairs. a full on raid for each major expansion then additions/layers to it in the smaller DLC.

 

You mention earlier about the difficulty and time investment people have but yet expect it to be more expansive? Counter intuitive. Of course I'd love two or three full on raids each year. maybe even a little bigger. I'm happy with the variety in encounters its given. Sure if it can be made better, great. But im wiling to bet it can't be done. Not without a massive team - which pushes up cost of development and as such price of stuff. I'd love to be proven wrong. Lets see what Anthem and Division 2 do. less of this speculating.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

I get it. The weapons you're referring to are Dahl weapons and most people think they're boring as fuck. I don't mind them myself, everything has its place. I don't mind the out there ones or the more vanilla ones. I wish there were more out there guns in Destiny, even if all they did was look anything but a traditional gun. Stuff like the Stimulant or the Mythoclast or Nercrochasm. Not everything has to have the traditional gun looks. You have a scifi setting, run with it!

 

I'd like them to spice things up yeah. For the most part I like the level of Variety in the Exotics, especially now they are updating their utility. I don't want BL level of craziness though. Leave that for BL and the like.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

I think the worst thing about Destiny 2 was the inclusion of the vendor. They put so much effort into making her have a full inventory an they did it by stripping out the rest of the game. I remember when I first booted up the game and I was playing alone and someone (Soundwave, you might remember him from g™?) joined my game wearing Chatterwhite and had this awesome ship. I was like, damn, I need that shit, so I worked towards it and got it. That was the cool thing about it, if I saw something I knew that person had earned it. I saw someone with an Icebreaker on their back and I'd inspect them just to have a closer look at it. I was envious that someone in my crew had a Black Spindle. I had friends that would wait for me to get on because I had a Vision of Confluence and I could beast the Nightfall with it.

 

Those feelings have been completely lost mainly because of the way they've handled the game. I don't want tokens. I want full sets of armour that I can work towards that have interesting properties. Playing and maybe getting stuff on a level up isn't satisfying, nor when I look and see people with cool stuff does it feel like they've worked for it.

 

There's a lot I really dislike about how they've handled D2. They've promised to sort it out and they've taken steps towards it, but now it's looking like another dole out of money to get what we should have had in the first place. I think promises are easy too, it's easy to make a promise, it's keeping it that's the real challenge. We're not going to know if they've hit it until it comes around.

 

Yup totally. I've not really been interested in the D2 raids a s the gear for the most part is shit. I'm enjoying Warmind tho. The new Escalation Protocol event is fun, now im at a sufficient level, and has three good guns. The Ikelos shotgun is in videos at the minue destroying bosses. But yeah only a step.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

 

 

You can play BL2 because it's still there, it's always going to be there. Aside from a few perk re balances it's as is. I can't play Division as it was simply because it doesn't exist. It's same as something like No Man's Sky. The version that got panned no longer exists. Destiny and Destiny 2 are in the same boat (although D1 will be less rockier since it was sorted out and a nice game too boot when I left it). D2 will get better, I've said it before here and elsewhere, it looking outwards not only to other games that have done stuff better (including it's own game) as well as looking at feedback akin to how Division ironed out a lot of it's own shit. A fool learns from his own mistakes and a wise man learns from other springs to mind. Hopefully Bungie are smart enough to realise that.

 

 

I thought you played Division? Fair enough if you hadn't, you obviously have no point of comparison to where it is now.

 

I'm not fully convinced Bungie do learn entirely. So big a studio now I fear its a case of too many chefs. D3 is in development, even within these current changes, and will probably fuck with it all over again

 

4 hours ago, Sly Reflex said:

Not ill, but tired as fuck. Need bed.

 

What the fuck are you doing up at that time?

 

As much as I'm enjoying the debate on some aspects, lets wind in the BL comparisons. Not really productive and I don't like trying to point out negatives to a game I really enjoy/enjoyed.

[Duck]

*posts some positive Destiny news*

 

*comes back a day later, looks at thread*...

 

 

[ThreeFour]

? I don't think it's that bad. A bit long winded ?

 

All this is keeping him distracted from doing one of his moans on the pricing of DLC and the fact you need both Osiris and Warmind to play Forsaken which is fucking stupid. Not sure the reasoning one that one. Best bet is they chuck it in cheap like in a bundle. 

[regemond]

I'd rather listen to a DLC rant, at least they're short(ish) and sharp. My phone hasn't got enough data to keep up with this back and forth.

 

Spoiler

I'm totally taking the piss - it's quite entertaining to see how stubborn you both are!

 

[HandsomeDead]

Destiny has good feeling guns and fun jumping.  Don't @ me