Street Fighter V

[bellow]

I remember when I was a kid I asked my mother for a ventriloquist dummy for Christmas, but only one that could speak by itself, like the ones I'd seen many times on Sunday night TV. 

 

Is there anything like that, but in fight game controllers?

 

 

[Maf]

I’ve played a bit more SFV and I think I’m reaching the realisation where maybe I just don’t like Street Fighter. Even doing simple things in these games is too hard. I know Mary will be like “They made it easier” I don’t care, it’s still too hard. Thinking about it I wonder if they know they need to make this game more approachable too and that’s why in SF6 they’re doing simple controls. 
 

This game is so unfriendly even doing basic 3 hit combos takes a lot of practice. They’re whole shit where “push the button as soon as the first attack hits” is some bullshit. You either have to somehow see it or assume and how the fuck. Even in training mode I can’t do this. It’s too precise.

 

After playing more fighting games lately the thing I realise is I love movement, I love strategy, I love reaction, I love mind games, I love cool looking shit. I don’t like execution. Once it’s your turn to punch it shouldn’t be that hard to hit 3 buttons. I’m not saying it should do a lot of damage, or high execution shouldn’t be required for big combos, but basic shit should be basic and this is not part of the game I enjoy spending hours on. 
 

I’m not saying I’m giving up on it yet. I’ll try more characters and I still wanna whoop @bellow‘s shit but out of the 4 fighting games I’ve played over the last year this is easy bottom. Even trying to see what the approach to this game is on Twitch/YT the game isn’t even that fun as a spectator thing.

 

I dunno. I’m struggling to get it. 

[bellow]

I've spent hours this weekend watching the central America CPT (go MenaRD)!

 

I love watching it. In fact I love watching it more than any real sport. I just can't fucking play it.

 

[Maryokutai]

11 hours ago, Maf said:

I wonder if they know they need to make this game more approachable too and that’s why in SF6 they’re doing simple controls. 

 

Simple controls won't fix your issues with it because they just make special motions easier, they have zero effect on the timing for linking together normal buttons. If you want to get a feel how simple inputs will affect gameplay, you should try Falke or Ed, because they're already kind of designed around that idea.

 

And it's really not that hard, you just need to familiarise yourself with the proper timing and rhythm and then get that into your muscle memory. It's not a visual thing, it's knowing when to press it. Visually recognising hits only comes into place when you start confirming them which you will absolutely not do at your level anyway.

 

Edit: to elaborate the process a bit – pick a character that has a normal that links into itself without having to switch between crouching and standing. So let's say Cammy and her cr.MP. Then you go into training mode, set the dummy to "block after first attack", hit the first cr.MP and then hit the second one. If nothing happens, you were too fast. If the dummy blocks, you were too slow. Then find the sweet spot in between and as soon as both hits connect you have pretty much found the timing for most basic links in the game. Just make sure not to mash the buttons because that gets you absolutely nowhere in SF.

[Maf]

Setting the dummy up to block after first hit is what I did right away so I know if the combo is working or not. But I dunno, it’s tough.

 

Also I think simple controls could still help. Like if simple controls means Chun-Li doesn’t have to charge or charge for as long then boom much easier.

 

If that’s how that’ll work I dunno but linking special combo enders would be much easier if it’s just a quick tap down and up on the stick then having to hold down inbetween ducking and standing 

[one-armed dwarf]

You don't really want a game where charge inputs are easier to do surely cause that would be hell on defense if they could just throw it out from any state, they're charge for a reason

 

I know VI is doing something like that but iirc there's drawbacks to the simplified inputs anyway, so better players won't be doing that presumably

[Maf]

23 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

You don't really want a game where charge inputs are easier to do

Yes

 

23 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

surely cause that would be hell on defense if they could just throw it out from any state, they're charge for a reason

Why? What’s the difference between a charge move and anything else. Chun-Li’s fireball is a rip off in comparison to regular fireballs.

 

Unless charge moves are super high damage then I don’t see what the difference is

 

For the record I don’t want charge to go away because it is satisfying when you nail it. But I dunno. Reduce the time, or reduce the time if the move is proceeded by a combo or something, or reduce damage for a simple SBK but making the game more flexible can’t be a bad thing  
 

 

[one-armed dwarf]

I've no idea if any of this applies to chun li tbh, but usually you have to downback to throw out a charge, which limits the scenarios it can be thrown out at you, but it often has its frame data coded in a way to take advantage of it (longer startup due to charge, but faster recovery, most of the time I think). eg, you cant just walk up to someone in neutral and quickly throw it out cause that would be absolutely fucked and just a better option than fireballs all day. Making things more flexible in that sense could lead to a much more degenerate offense game from your opponent

 

 

 

Now the simplified motion input thing in SFVI probably gives you what you want here, but there will be fewer links and opportunities to capitalize on confirms from simple inputs is what I understand from how they decided to balance things, to avoid this issue. Basically there's a compromise

 

I know I'm not clued on SF but I think these are pretty universal things at least no matter the game. As far as confirming into charge moves from a combo well I really don't know, that's a different thing, just talking about what I reckon neutral would look like if you were to make things like that easier and faster to execute without also taking into account what advantage they have right now

[Maf]

15 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

 

 

Now the simplified motion input thing in SFVI probably gives you what you want here, but there will be fewer links and opportunities to capitalize on confirms from simple inputs is what I understand from how they decided to balance things, to avoid this issue. Basically there's a compromise

I think this is a great way to go with it. Absolutely make the ground floor easier for newer players at the trade off as you will be playing the game simpler from every aspect, and keep the high ceiling for the people that really want to master and milk the character for everything they can do. 
 

But enable things like simple BnB’s doable for players that aren’t that and don’t want to spend 5 hours at a time to sometimes get a combo right. These games are too demanding when there’s definitely a way to relax the entry barrier without giving up the depth 

[Maryokutai]

I already told you that you can end any Chun-Li combo with either SBK (charge move) or Lightning Legs (Quarter Circle input). LL does less damage, doesn't give you as big a positional advantage afterwards and only the heavy version knocks down, but that's exactly the low floor you're looking for.

 

Generally speaking though she's absolutely not a beginner character and if you struggle with basic links she's not a good pick.

 

Edit: I checked my youtube channel. Look at this old replay, that was me learning Chun. Notice how I never go for the SBK combo in that fight as well, I always used LL instead because I wasn't comfortable with the optimal route yet.

 

 

[Maf]

Is the other guy not blocking? You make it look so easy. It looks like you have so much time in between your hits. The way you make it look doesn’t match up to what it feels like to play at all.

Also I see you horizontal jump to get yourself extra charge time. 

Not sure where you’re getting those fireballs from though 

[Maf]

On 01/08/2022 at 23:16, Maf said:

Even trying to see what the approach to this game is on Twitch/YT the game isn’t even that fun as a spectator thing.

That Evo top 8 was fucking electric. That final had me squirming it was so fucking good 

[bellow]

You tell 'im, Maf!

[bellow]

In good time I've got my PS4 back and I'm making good headway on the basics. I've cleared the first 15 trials for Ken (out of 60 I'm guessing) and have beaten SF, sf2 and sf3 in arcade on hard which was no mean feat I can tell you.

 

I'm getting reasonably clean in my execution even under the pressure of a sumbitch 8 level CPU final boss. And I know it's meaningless to judge myself by these battles but there's no denying the fun I'm having putting my chops together - even the wrong way.

 

Gonna see October out with Ken then choose another character (from the sf6 roster) each month until the new game comes out, probably juri next.

[Maryokutai]

Went to a local SFV tournament yesterday, the very first one that was close enough for me to visit. It was run by a tightly knit group who have done this for a few years now and they were legitimately euphoric to see a new face, even more so someone who could keep up and was also using a character they barely had any experience against. It was a nice feeling being so openly welcomed, particularly as I didn't have a very good last 18 months or so.

 

The whole thing even got streamed with (english) commentary and all. It's all super low-budget of course but I appreciate their commitment. In the unlikely scenario someone wants to watch it, the SF part starts at 3:00:00, my "run" at 5:30:00: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1830635982

[one-armed dwarf]

I don't know which player you are, but is Rose sort of a mid screen zoner or something? I want to try a zoner in SF6

[Maryokutai]

Yes, I'm the Rose player. She's a zoner, but uses fireballs to do so which are a weak tool in SFV, hence my over-reliance on b.HK (the forward hop/spinkick) and V-Trigger mixups. I did have a lucky matchup spread throughout the tournament though, the only really troublesome character I faced was Vega in the end.

 

SF6 seems to have a good number of potentially strong zoners from an early glance.

[HandsomeDead]

Man, the damage scaling on those post stun combos were brutal.  Would a throw have actually done the job? it's hard to tell.

 

Really good matches, though.

[Maryokutai]

Throws are affected by damage scaling as well, so you want to go for a combo there regardless, even if it's only for meter build.

 

Also thanks for checking out the replay. I watched it earlier as well and it's a bit surreal seeing yourself play with commentary in the background.

 

And sorry for rambling about it, but as my first time ever playing a fighting game in an offline setting, this really opened my eyes as to the potential of the genre beyond just the actual game. It's a far cry from the usual teabagging and rematch-refusing nonsense you see online all day. To be entirely honest, SFV towards the end of its lifespan was such an unenjoyable and toxic experience that I was genuinely considering not really bothering with 6 too much, but these guys rekindled my motivation.

[HandsomeDead]

Nah, you're right.  I'd love it if there was something like that in my town that was easy to get to.  When you're in person it does encourage more normal behaviour instead of acting a fool.