How Genre Doesn't Work In Games and How Do We Fix It!?

[HandsomeDead]

Let's consult the Oxford dictionary and find out what genre really is.

Definition of genre

noun

1: a style or category of art, music, or literature:

the spy thriller is a very masculine genre

the science fiction genre

2: [as modifier] denoting or relating to a style of painting depicting scenes from ordinary life, typically domestic situations, associated particularly with 17th-century Dutch and Flemish artists:

genre scenes

Fuck all there relates to genre in video games so lets try a different approach to the meaning of genre.

So lets go to Wikipedia for something broader.

A literary genre is a category of literary composition. Genres may be determined by literary technique, tone, content, or even (as in the case of fiction) length. Genre should not be confused with age category, by which literature may be classified as either adult, young-adult, or children's. They also must not be confused with format, such as graphic novel or picture book. The distinctions between genres and categories are flexible and loosely defined, often with subgroups.

The most general genres in literature are (in loose chronological order) epic, tragedy,[1] comedy, novel, short story, and creative nonfiction.[citation needed] They can all be in the genres prose or poetry, which shows best how loosely genres are defined. Additionally, a genre such as satire, allegory or pastoral might appear in any of the above, not only as a sub-genre (see below), but as a mixture of genres. Finally, they are defined by the general cultural movement of the historical period in which they were composed. The concept of "genre" has been criticized by Jacques Derrida.[2][3]

Huh. There is an interesting sentence amongst that stuff: They also must not be confused with format, such as graphic novel or picture book.

Format. That is how games seem to be distinguished these days, but are called genre.

I suppose that's where a whole lot of confusion and disappointment comes from in video games. Horror is a big one. So many games indulge in the horror genre but don't necessarily have the best video game horror format, for games at least. But I think the horror format may exist in games that you don't expect to be horror such as Pac-Man or Monkey Island except with scary music in the background.

I was going to tackle the whole RPG thing, too, but that is just a headache.

Games seem to mix genre and format up so much to the point it's not clear anymore. RPG and FPS isn't a genre, it's a format.

How do we figure it out! Come on MF Gamers!

[spatular]

Games seem to mix genre and format up so much to the point it's not clear anymore. RPG and FPS isn't a genre, it's a format.

How do we figure it out! Come on MF Gamers!

classification of games into groups is useful, what we call that i'm not sure matters. it helps explain what new games are like, you could say outland is a metroidvania platformer crossed with ikaruga, if you know what that stuff is you'd have a vague idea what outland is like - without that it's be pretty difficult to describe quickly. yeah there's loads of games that cross into multiple different "formats", and different people will categorise things differently, but that's just how it is - is it possible to fix it? i'm not even sure what i'm on about now or what is/isn't being fixed.

i barely ever use the term "genre" - mainly because i can't spell or pronounce it very well.

also isn't format already used for ps3/ps2/pc/atari2600 etc?

[Bob]

Good luck with this one dude. I don't really care, they are just loose terms that in the end mean nothing to me. Whether it is called genre, format or anything else, ultimately the game will still be made the same and I know to avoid anything with the word sports tied to it.

It just seems like a pet peev powered by semantics and not something that is hampering the industry. Unless you have specific examples of how something could have been better using a different word to define it?

[DANGERMAN]

there's probably examples of things not getting made because the pitch included a genre word, or even stuff getting shoehorned in because a certain genre is popular. I agree with Spatular that we probably need them, and while I get the point you're making DC (and agree with it), I think fps is probably a genre with sub-genres off that. I do agree we're at the point where they've started to become a bit meaningless, the language of games and the language of storytelling dont necessarily fit together that we sometimes

[HandsomeDead]

classification of games into groups is useful, what we call that i'm not sure matters. it helps explain what new games are like, you could say outland is a metroidvania platformer crossed with ikaruga, if you know what that stuff is you'd have a vague idea what outland is like - without that it's be pretty difficult to describe quickly. yeah there's loads of games that cross into multiple different "formats", and different people will categorise things differently, but that's just how it is - is it possible to fix it? i'm not even sure what i'm on about now or what is/isn't being fixed.

i barely ever use the term "genre" - mainly because i can't spell or pronounce it very well.

also isn't format already used for ps3/ps2/pc/atari2600 etc?

Yeah, we already use format as the system it's played on or the cartridge/disc/DVD it runs off. But I think describing Outland as a Metroidvania crossed with Ikaruga relies far too much on jargon and a shared knowledge to be useful outside a small group of people. It works for us but that's it.

Good luck with this one dude. I don't really care, they are just loose terms that in the end mean nothing to me. Whether it is called genre, format or anything else, ultimately the game will still be made the same and I know to avoid anything with the word sports tied to it.

It just seems like a pet peev powered by semantics and not something that is hampering the industry. Unless you have specific examples of how something could have been better using a different word to define it?

I'm like that too. A game is what it is and I don't think or worry about genre (until last night where I did think about it).

I think you're right in that it probably isn't hampering the industry but I do think it cause confusion and arguments at times.

I don't think I have a better way of defining things. If we use film genres as a model it doesn't really tell us much about the gmae. Both Halo and Mass Effect are science fiction but they offer up quite different experiences so you do need to add the form too to contextualise it. One is a sci-fi shooter the... other is too, but with RPG elements... Oh, light bulb moment.

Forget what I said about format. What if some games are genre games like in the same way you get genre film. For example: Halo, Gear of War, the core Mario games; these are all genre games. They offer clearly defined experiences within their genre, unlike something like Grand Theft Auto which is a lot of things, and I dunno what to call games like that... which puts us all back at square one. Oh well.

Open world game just doesn't cut it, as I'd argue a "Metroidvania" is just another name for an open world game, except it unlocks as you get more powerful. I think they're too broad and fairly useless terms.

there's probably examples of things not getting made because the pitch included a genre word, or even stuff getting shoehorned in because a certain genre is popular. I agree with Spatular that we probably need them, and while I get the point you're making DC (and agree with it), I think fps is probably a genre with sub-genres off that. I do agree we're at the point where they've started to become a bit meaningless, the language of games and the language of storytelling dont necessarily fit together that we sometimes

As well as stuff getting shoehorned in I think old genre stuff gets left in needlessly too. I'm playing BioShock Infinite at the moment and the looting bodies stuff left over from its RPG origins is definitely the most pointless and pace breaking thing about it. Why I have to search bodies for a dozen apples to fill my health 25% of the way between firefights is so damn stupid. Cut that shit out. It's not Skyrem.

So anyway, I think having "genre games" is a start, but I don't really know about the other stuff.

[spatular]

But I think describing Outland as a Metroidvania crossed with Ikaruga relies far too much on jargon and a shared knowledge to be useful outside a small group of people. It works for us but that's it.

yeah fair point, you're right. if you just leave platformer (and take out the metroidvania/ikaruga bits) a lot of people would understand that, but the game is quite a strange platformer, which is sort of why i was trying to use it as an example, i haven't a clue how to describe it to someone without refering to the other games. best way would probably be to show them a short narrated video clip of the main gameplay elements. yeah that's definitely the way forward.

also books/stories have stuff like "autobiography", "fiction" - what do they mean? can't games have it's own language with the metroidvania thing?

[radiofloyd]

Marrowind. Skyrem.

DC you love your Elder Scholes.

(sorry, i'll say something relevant later...)

[Bob]

Mentioning Halo and Mass Effect is interesting and made me wonder. When you say genre are you talking about gameplay, story, themes or all of the above?

With movies and well, everything else genre is clearly defined by the story. Games don't have that benefit and for me personally when I say genre it is all about gameplay. Anything else I feel needs a proper bit of discussion and to sum up Halo by sayi g it is scifi wouldn't even occur to me.

I think (and this is just poorly thought out waffling) that gaming suffers by comparison to movies and such in this regard because the same rules can't apply to both. This is not the first time gaming has suffered in this way either I think. The rush to create stories like movies for example has left the unique benefits of game storytelling almost untapped.

[Bob]

Marrowind. Skyrem.

DC you love your Elder Scholes.

(sorry, i'll say something relevant later...)

I also found this hilarious. Thank you.

[HandsomeDead]

also books/stories have stuff like "autobiography", "fiction" - what do they mean? can't games have it's own language with the metroidvania thing?

Well, this is a separate thing. Autobiography and fiction are old words, they probably have a route in Latin, and language and books or writings are intertwined with the language we use daily...

I feel like I'm not making sense, but basically those words are recognisable to many even though they might not know the origins. The autobiography is a self penned book about their own life experiences, and fiction is just some made up stuff that didn't happen.

What I'm getting at is you learn about fiction and stuff at school and it's part of the wider shared knowledge where as Metroidvania isn't. I remember me and the rest of my class having to write an autobiography for homework at school, I don't remember having to build a Metroidvania.

I was just thinking if there is a better way to describe games but thinking about it more now I guess maybe not. In the midnight hour last night I thought it could be possible to label things better, because as is, it just seems off.

Mentioning Halo and Mass Effect is interesting and made me wonder. When you say genre are you talking about gameplay, story, themes or all of the above?

With movies and well, everything else genre is clearly defined by the story. Games don't have that benefit and for me personally when I say genre it is all about gameplay. Anything else I feel needs a proper bit of discussion and to sum up Halo by sayi g it is scifi wouldn't even occur to me.

I think (and this is just poorly thought out waffling) that gaming suffers by comparison to movies and such in this regard because the same rules can't apply to both. This is not the first time gaming has suffered in this way either I think. The rush to create stories like movies for example has left the unique benefits of game storytelling almost untapped.

I guess I'm on about all of the above with genre, but it can't be all of the above, and it's like that's what is happening.

Well, it is all semantics. But 'genre' in other places just doesn't mean the same thing as it does in game, the genre is a theme or a style of storytelling. It's like gaming took this word and misused it. So we take the word 'genre' and apply it to what, perhaps, should be considered 'form' or 'format'. That on its own is fine I guess. We have genres like first person shooter and role-playing games.

But then you have a genre like survival horror which borrows the use of genre from other media and mixes it with the different use that we've already established by basing the genre on the game's mechanics. That's just a cluster fuck.

And what about something like Heavy Rain? I guess I think of it as a psychological thriller borrowed from the movie world because I can't think of a game based genre it could fit in based on its mechanics.

I dunno. This is more complicated than I thought and may just be worth being ignorant of.

[spatular]

I don't remember having to build a Metroidvania.

maybe in the future games will be taught in schools

my point about fiction and whatnot was that games maybe should have new words to describe them. and at some point the word fiction was new. if we could only use old words than there would never have been any words.