Casual Gaming & The Wii's Market lead

[Dunkster]

Theres no question that if the Wii continues as such an unstoppable force like it is doing - it will be the next-gen victor and ultimate market leader - firmly kicking Sony & MS in the nads. Nintendo have single handedly redefined casual gaming to the point that hardcore gaming is facing its biggest threat for decades. Therefore would it not be impossible to imagine that games like MGS4 becoming part of a dying breed? The evidence of the "Wii Effect" is there for all to see - just look at the charts and see games like Sonic & Mario at the Olympics at their millionth week at No1 - and games like Carnival Funfair Games & Brain Training not far behind...

Its clear to see that even looking at the current set up for the PS3 & 360, both entered the market still targeting their core demographic - is this why, with the rise of casual gaming they are both clamouring for a piece of the pie. Clamouring for a piece of the pie is one thing - playing catch up will be quite another and it will be interesting to see quite how any of them can offer the same kind of experience Nintendo has built with its 3-year head start.

It just shows you how ahead of the game Nintendo has been - and how much its competitors have not forseen this massively profitable untapped casual market. It doesn't just stop here, they've also demonstrated how you can appeal to a totally new kind of customer and with the release of Wii Fit encouraging their audience to have a healthy gaming/life balance.

So, as Sony continues to wrestle with high prices & shortage of software, and Microsoft, hardware unreliablity & hardcore obsession, all Nintendo has to do is continue with its current strategy - it's quite interesting to see where they'll take us next!

[Pikman]

So, as Sony continues to wrestle with high prices & shortage of software, and Microsoft, hardware unreliablity & hardcore obsession, all Nintendo has to do is continue with its current strategy - it's quite interesting to see where they'll take us next!

Us?

You know, I'm not sure whether they are forgetting about us...

I need to play Wii Fit before I comment really but I am worried they are forgetting about games for people who like games...

I'm aware this is discussed a lot but it does worry me. I'd love to see Nintento make a heap of cash as I do believe they are the most inventive games company out there and I have supported them for ages. But I don't really want them to succeed solely by producing games that aren't really games... I'd rather go to the gym than be in my lounge pretending to get fit.

I know there have been some pretty good games on the Wii, MK most recently has been loads of fun (although I do think it is slightly dumbed down) but I'd like to see some originality aimed at those who already play games... Pikmin for instance, although not a 3rd one, something different.... I'm sure they have it in them to do it!

Maybe its just me, but I'm sure I use my Wii a LOT less than I used my Cube...

[Jimboxy]

you've got to remember that, although the casual market is currently the force to be reckoned with, casual people are whimsical, something that is popular at the moment probably won't be this time in 5 years. In the 90's it was global hypercolor tees and tab clear, now its ipods and wiis (i know thats a rubbish comparison but you see where i'm going with it). Although casual gaming is becoming the "norm" esp for Ninty, there is still massive amounts of money to be made in the "hardcore" market. All the people that where playing cubes,ps2 and xbox's are still there, but now the market has received a new influx of new customers. They won't stop catering to the hardcore just because someone else has shown up, they will target both.

If anything this can only for the better. Churn out the shit that the masses will buy, and continue in investing in killer titles for the hardcore. Everyone's a winner.

[DANGERMAN]

Theres no question that if the Wii continues as such an unstoppable force like it is doing - it will be the next-gen victor and ultimate market leader - firmly kicking Sony & MS in the nads. Nintendo have single handedly redefined casual gaming to the point that hardcore gaming is facing its biggest threat for decades. Therefore would it not be impossible to imagine that games like MGS4 becoming part of a dying breed? The evidence of the "Wii Effect" is there for all to see - just look at the charts and see games like Sonic & Mario at the Olympics at their millionth week at No1 - and games like Carnival Funfair Games & Brain Training not far behind...

I completely disagree with this. Where is there any evidence that hardcore games are on the decline. Halo 3 was the biggest thing ever till COD4 (the biggest selling game of the year), RE4 sold over a million on the Wii, GTA4 looks set to break records, Devil May Cry 4 is I think the best selling of the series (could be very wrong, but it's sold a couple of mill) and Metal Gear will sell over a million easily.

The idea 'hardcore' gaming is under threat is utter shite. Sure a few people can make money off casual games, but it's always been that way. Before the Wii launched the hardcore were all bitching about the film licence games, sports games, brainless games, and racing games (remember Juiced and Need for speed?) beating the hardcore favourites like Shadow of the Colossus. I can't remember a time when the charts reflected the views of a gaming forum

Games like Warcraft and Halflife etc sell far too much to be abandoned, and far too many casual games sink without a trace. The market expanded witht he DS and Wii (arguably the PS2/1 if you want to go back far enough) and actually seems to work as 2 seperate entities now. The casuals buy casual games, and the rest of us buy hardcore games. I'd also like to look at the sales comparison between the original releases of Rez & Ikaruga to the recent ones

This whole thing is something dreamed up by the 'hardcore' for yet another reason to hate everything and everyone. Remember when Cooking Mama came out and it was an obscure japanese cooking game, now it's the route of all evil. It went from being the most hardcore of games (a japanophile's dream) to being the nemisis between the US and PAL lauches.

Traditional gaming is not under threat, and I'd agree with Jimbo that the casual gaming boom is largely a fad. There's a reason analysts claim that certain games (GTA, Halo) are recession proof

RAAAARGGGHH!

[Hendo]

It always makes me laugh when people deride "non-games" but then gush about Metal Gear Solid. 'Cos, y'know....

Seriously though, I can't actually remember the gameplay of MGS 2 at all.

For the main point, I don't think the casual market is a fad, but rather that companies can't expect to make much back. The stereotypical non-gamer, let's call her Judith, would never pick up a gaming magazine nor go to a gaming website unless she found it by googling what she was after. Judith isn't interested in games and would never call herself a gamer, but she loves that virtual sports game she played round her nephews the other day and she wants some of that bowling action. She's not gonna buy anything else, because why would she?

People bitch that attach rates are super-low for the Wii games, well what did you expect? Billions of people play Solitaire on Windows but it doesn't mean they're gonna run out and buy frickin' Crysis.

So Judith buys a Wii, decides she needs an extra Wiimote, says hello to Wii Play, and Nintendo are rolling in the dough. All they need to do is release another big game like Wii Sports to recapture that feeling (Wii Fit waves in the distance) and job's a good 'un.

What this means is that the casual market isn't a fad, but all these minigame compilations being released are from publishers who do not understand the audience the Wii is getting.

Meanwhile so-called hardcore gamers are taking the piss out of that dusty console they once had and sold, or can't afford (and won't admit that they want one) and the rest of us shrug and get on with the actual awesome real games that are on there.

If Microsoft and Sony try to emulate what Nintendo have achieved they will no doubt fail and piss off the hardcore userbase even more than the angry little blighters are now. And boy are they angry.

[Pikman]

I agree with all that, not worried that 'casual' games are going to take over or anything, my only worry is that Nintendo aren't focusing on games for ME as much as I would like

They'll still produce awesome games I'm sure!

[Dunkster]

Theres no question that if the Wii continues as such an unstoppable force like it is doing - it will be the next-gen victor and ultimate market leader - firmly kicking Sony & MS in the nads. Nintendo have single handedly redefined casual gaming to the point that hardcore gaming is facing its biggest threat for decades. Therefore would it not be impossible to imagine that games like MGS4 becoming part of a dying breed? The evidence of the "Wii Effect" is there for all to see - just look at the charts and see games like Sonic & Mario at the Olympics at their millionth week at No1 - and games like Carnival Funfair Games & Brain Training not far behind...

I completely disagree with this. Where is there any evidence that hardcore games are on the decline. Halo 3 was the biggest thing ever till COD4 (the biggest selling game of the year), RE4 sold over a million on the Wii, GTA4 looks set to break records, Devil May Cry 4 is I think the best selling of the series (could be very wrong, but it's sold a couple of mill) and Metal Gear will sell over a million easily.

The idea 'hardcore' gaming is under threat is utter shite. Sure a few people can make money off casual games, but it's always been that way. Before the Wii launched the hardcore were all bitching about the film licence games, sports games, brainless games, and racing games (remember Juiced and Need for speed?) beating the hardcore favourites like Shadow of the Colossus. I can't remember a time when the charts reflected the views of a gaming forum

Games like Warcraft and Halflife etc sell far too much to be abandoned, and far too many casual games sink without a trace. The market expanded witht he DS and Wii (arguably the PS2/1 if you want to go back far enough) and actually seems to work as 2 seperate entities now. The casuals buy casual games, and the rest of us buy hardcore games. I'd also like to look at the sales comparison between the original releases of Rez & Ikaruga to the recent ones

This whole thing is something dreamed up by the 'hardcore' for yet another reason to hate everything and everyone. Remember when Cooking Mama came out and it was an obscure japanese cooking game, now it's the route of all evil. It went from being the most hardcore of games (a japanophile's dream) to being the nemisis between the US and PAL lauches.

Traditional gaming is not under threat, and I'd agree with Jimbo that the casual gaming boom is largely a fad. There's a reason analysts claim that certain games (GTA, Halo) are recession proof

RAAAARGGGHH!

Oooh that got you charged ey Ben!

I suppose part of my argument was fuelled by an article in last months PSM3 which made it look in its opening feature that MGS4 "kojima was making a last stand against casual games". It also stressed the rise of the casual market and quite validly how the DS had helped redefine the market. The results are there to see.

I can accept that some people may feel that the 'casuals' are nothing more than a short-term fix against the backdrop of the more long term appeal of something like GTA or MGS, but theres no denying casual gamings apparent market appeal to its designated audience - it clearly makes money for some.

I actually think the PS2 is also benefitting from the success of of the casual market - not as much as the Wii obviously but theres alot of casual stuff on the console - many people still own a PS2 & its still got its sizable userbase and of course chart games are continuing to appear - its clearly giving the old console something of a life extension - something Sony is clearly keen to push.

[Sambob]

I agree with most of the points that have been said, what hendo said about there being a perceived idea of the 'casual' gamer and also the reality, but I also agree that theres been a definite shift in the games being made and like Wildejon said, I feel like the games that Ive wanted to see on the Wii arent being made and that Nintendo are focusing on their new found market.

I feel like the older kid once a lovely new baby has arrived, and all the attention has gone away. The games that I personally want to see are the ones that are appearing on the 360 or PS3, and i dont think its to do with the graphical power or anything like that, its a shift in Nintys focus, and a shift in the way theyve done things previously. I dont have much to look forward to on the Wii, and im not being moody, there arent many games that I want to play, in accordance with how ive always played games and what Ive always looked for.

Where is the next Red Steel (not necessarily red steel 2), the next pikmin etc etc, there doesnt seem to be any details of these things, instead theres wii fit, wii music - which will probably be pretty good, but i dont feel like this game is made for me as far as being a Nintendo Gamer through the ages. Im actually playing gamecube games more often than the big Wii games (apart from mario galaxy).

[Shin_Seffron]

Its all a matter of perception, Nintendo arent really ignoring the hardcore gamers - theyve given us Paper mario, mario galaxy, mario kart, mario strikers, metroid prime 3, zelda and smash bros brawl (okay, mostly mario games...) that is quite a lot of 'hardcore' games by nintendo's standard its just that there is a massive influx of casual games being pumped out. Most third party developers are guilty of choosing the easy route of churning out a telly addicts game or some other gumpf that people will buy - the point is theres hardly and hardcore games that are relesed by third party developers.

I've seriously considered trading in my wii over the last few months as theres not much out to hold my attention - and to be honest i havent traded it in because the only thing i could use that amount of money to buy is a PS3, and theres not enough games on that to warrant it sitting next to my 360 at the moment.

The thing with the wii is its potential. Potential that most developers overlook in favour of the quick buck. Im sure it would be possible to port GTAIV and Res 5 but its just not worth the development time and money.

I cant see the Wii's popularity fading any time soon, and i dont think its a fad - I think the casual gamer market will stay. The question is will Nintendo (and the third parties for that matter) start catering more for the hardcore fanbase, before they all decide to jump ship and go with a sony or microsoft machine.

[Hendo]

That's the thing - if the companies have any sense at all they know that the hardcore are the ones who buy games regularly and the casual are just that, casual. There are exceptions: GTA IV is not a casual game by the usual requirements but it's hard to find a copy, just like Halo 3 and Cod4 sold by the bucket load. Games don't sell that much if they just appeal to minority of the people who (for example) know what Rez or Ikaruga were like before they joined the Live Arcade.

No-one's ever gonna "abandon" the hardcore market because it would be a financial disaster, but the middle ground of a game like GTA is more likely than a strategy RPG.

[DANGERMAN]

I agree with Shin about perspective. The Wii does have a few hardcore games and the other 2 casual games etc. When I look at the release list for the other consoles theres as little there to interest me as there is on the Wii (less if I'm honest). I dont want to sound like some Wii fanboy but my ps3 hasnt been used as a games machine in a month and the 360 has been in my housemates room just as long.

All the stereotype and snide remarks have an element of truth to them, the 360 does have a fuck load of action games, more than i'm ever going to want to play. I'd like to see the Wii really step up with its own action games, creating something new and original (which was why i bought that Kekkaishi game) and there have been one or two and there's another couple on the horizon, but I can see why people are getting frustrated. The 360 in particular covers that area of game better than the Wii, and likely always will do.

[Shin_Seffron]

Yeah the one thing the Wii needs is some action games! It really needs some decent FPS's to lure over the 360 owners, cos lets face it Red Steel showed FPS's had potential on the Wii then Prime 3 showed us how to do it right. Even some more platform type games along the lines of Paper Mario wouldnt go amiss - but i suppose the lack of platformers is an issue that stretches across all formats at the moment.

I just hope the Wii's potential to be a 'Revolution' doesnt get drowned by the creation of the casual gamers phenomenon.

[Dunkster]

I agree with Shin about perspective. The Wii does have a few hardcore games and the other 2 casual games etc. When I look at the release list for the other consoles theres as little there to interest me as there is on the Wii (less if I'm honest). I dont want to sound like some Wii fanboy but my ps3 hasnt been used as a games machine in a month and the 360 has been in my housemates room just as long.

All the stereotype and snide remarks have an element of truth to them, the 360 does have a fuck load of action games, more than i'm ever going to want to play. I'd like to see the Wii really step up with its own action games, creating something new and original (which was why i bought that Kekkaishi game) and there have been one or two and there's another couple on the horizon, but I can see why people are getting frustrated. The 360 in particular covers that area of game better than the Wii, and likely always will do.

Maybe I'm probably more favouring towards platformers & adventure games but one of my main issues with the 360 is that it doesn't seem to have much of any of these - theres nothing to compare with the likes of Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank 4, Mario Galaxy or Jak & Daxter. ( Tomb Raider is available on all formats) and that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. Thats the main problem for me with Microsoft's console - there are too MANY action titles (shooters especially - I Just don't like them - even on PS3 - even The Orange Box walked!). Too few of any of the above - thats why I probably lean more towards a Wii, PS2 & PS3 set up. (so its not about machines - my preferences purely provide me with the games I like)

[Hendo]

Normally I would never pimp our podcast outside of the thread for it, but it's worth listening to the latest one as Ben makes a good point that there's nothing wrong with having a favoured platform but only when it's a positive thing. That is, "I prefer the 360 because I like shooty shooty games" rather than, "I prefer the 360 cause the others suck balls".

Christ, it's like back in high school with the whole Indie versus Metal thing. I just wish people could shrug at something that isn't their bag (baby) but it always seems to be petty digs at stuff they don't like. Or fall into the multi-corporations trap and do their advertising for them.

[Dunkster]

Normally I would never pimp our podcast outside of the thread for it, but it's worth listening to the latest one as Ben makes a good point that there's nothing wrong with having a favoured platform but only when it's a positive thing. That is, "I prefer the 360 because I like shooty shooty games" rather than, "I prefer the 360 cause the others suck balls".

Christ, it's like back in high school with the whole Indie versus Metal thing. I just wish people could shrug at something that isn't their bag (baby) but it always seems to be petty digs at stuff they don't like. Or fall into the multi-corporations trap and do their advertising for them.

My dislike of shooters hasn't been for want of trying - I've played [tried] many of them - Halo, Halo 2, Timesplitters, Black, Chronicles Of Riddick etc and they do absolutley nothing for me at all. I think I just came to the conclusion that I wanted to spend more time in colourful happy worlds rather than gritty, grey alien/Sci fi ones that all seemed to follow a very familar pattern. Sure Platformers can follow a familar pattern but theres more platformers that leave me with a sense of satisfaction & a smile on my face with their humour & environment than a shooter has ever done on any system I've played them on. Shooters I also don't enjoy because their intensity makes me feel irritated & aggressive, its not a feeling I enjoy and I don't want games to make me feel like that - my family don't like it either.

I think it all comes back to ones individual preference. Either something agrees with you or it doesn't.

[Hendo]

It's weird you say that because when I think of the PS3 I don't think of platformers, I think that both the 360 and the PS3 are quite similar in output. Thinking about it, that's probably why there's such a rivalry with the owners of each.

It's certainly the only reason (bar lack of cash) that I haven't picked one up yet, and I would think it's silly at the moment to have both, unless you have buckets of cash or you got lucky with phone deals ().

As for preference, I have none but like to have a broad taste (though there's still stuff like SRPG's that I can't get into). For example, last year 3 of my favourite games were Super Mario Galaxy, Portal and Call of Duty 4.

Sometimes I like to enter into that colourful, happy land of crazy gravity. Sometimes I like to use my noggin and solve some abstract puzzles. And sometimes, just sometimes, I like to shoot people in the face.

[Dunkster]

It's weird you say that because when I think of the PS3 I don't think of platformers, I think that both the 360 and the PS3 are quite similar in output. Thinking about it, that's probably why there's such a rivalry with the owners of each.

It's certainly the only reason (bar lack of cash) that I haven't picked one up yet, and I would think it's silly at the moment to have both, unless you have buckets of cash or you got lucky with phone deals ().

As for preference, I have none but like to have a broad taste (though there's still stuff like SRPG's that I can't get into). For example, last year 3 of my favourite games were Super Mario Galaxy, Portal and Call of Duty 4.

Sometimes I like to enter into that colourful, happy land of crazy gravity. Sometimes I like to use my noggin and solve some abstract puzzles. And sometimes, just sometimes, I like to shoot people in the face.

I think the primary motive behind my PS3 purchase was probably to experience more of what had endeared me to PS2 - but probably better realised. I'd always been a great admirer of games I'd experienced from Naughty Dog & Insomniac - both are incredibly good at platform-based gameplay although it is nice to see them branch out into different genres in this console generation. Theres certainly been impressive IP from them (surprises like Uncharted, for example) but I'd still love to exprience a next-gen iteration of the games that had me hooked originally. Maybe I'll get my wish, maybe I won't.

I'd never really owned a PSone from the beginning. My gaming life began with PS2 - so as opposed to someone who may have bought those first two & then had a change - it was always going to be the other way round for me. I barely just scraped by to get this PS3 I've got too - shortly before my last job at the hospital ended & paid off with my last wages. I certainly couldn't afford it now.