DANGERMAN Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I disagree that gamers are artists. I'm paraphrasing but they said that art (as in pictures) was passive, whereas games were interactive so the player creates the world/art. Basically because we play games in different ways, like Sly's example, games are different to traditional art, but we do experience traditional art in different ways. Take music as an example, some times I'll listen to an album in bed, in the dark through headphones with my eyes closed, other times it's as I'm playing a game or watching tv or while walking, I can still appreciate whatever it's offering in all those forms. Gallery art is the same, some people stare and admire the brush strokes others absorb it then move on. Basically the way a player takes away a different experience from a game than someone else is exactly the same as 2 people hearing a song differently. Games are different from most other media, potentially, because of the way they engage the player, not because they engage the player. To pick 2 different but equally obvious examples, Bioshock and Braid. Both use gameplay to make a point, but one is explicit in how it makes its point (while holding the reveal back) while the other is very literal in how it represents its narrative in the gameplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 I agree with you that the same piece of art can be appreciated in different ways by different people, they should have known that themselves. But what I think is different is that a painting, or some music, is usually created for the artist; a way to express themselves. But a game the player is part of the creative process, it's the players input (more direct than with other media's) that unravels the art. The user has to be considered by the designer, more so than other media. I think Street Fighter IV (or any other I suppose) is a good example of the designer laying down the tools for the player to express themselves. There is a mix of fighters with different techniques and require a different way to fight and finding your main will reflect you in a way. Some characters lend themselves to aggressive play, some more defensive, some more technical and what not. And you can even have two people who use the same character but do so in totally different ways. Perhaps it's not art in the conventional sense, but since art is something no one can actually define (or at least agree on a definition) then it's not unlike when *insert favourite footballer* does something creative within the rules of the game to overcome another player and score. But that's not the only way to do it. Naturally, games with multiple choices (Fallout, Mass effect and the like) have a way of allowing the player to express themselves and have the repercussions of their actions reflected back at them. Obviously they are conducting their own experiences with the tools available to them. Maybe labelling the player an artist is a bit strong, but I see what they are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Reflex Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Why would the player be an artist though? I don't become and artist listening to music, even if I dance to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 because games need to be played to be complete (but then films need to be watched, pictures seen etc), and the player/viewer needs to be considered more. I'm not really convinced by it tbh but I see what they're trying to say. DC brought up football which I was going to do with regards to Street Fighter (or action/puzzle games as a whole). You're given the tools and a rule set to work within the same way you are in sport, and you can equally be creative (probably more so tbh) I think it's a weak argument but I do see what they're going for. And I do think how games engage the player, and vice versa I guess, is something games should look at, and what makes them stand out. I mean a writer has to consider the reader when writing a book, make sure they can follow it, a film can't be 6 hours long (it could but it wouldn't be). Games have to consider the player to be functional, but I think that's something different from making them an artist. fwiw I do think games can be art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Reflex Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I think games are art too, I just think that pushing the "Gamers are artists" is a fucking stupid concept. That's like saying chess players are artists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 one thing I will say is game meetings must have conversations that go "Then the player will do this and it'll be awesome" but then I imagine that's how Michael Bay makes films Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Why would the player be an artist though? I don't become and artist listening to music, even if I dance to it. It depends how broad your idea of art is. I have no doubt there is someone out there who sees you wobbling your arms and hips and tells you your an artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGunKnacker Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 yeah im not with the squeaky-voiced-one on this. if a game lets the user directly create, through a level creator or in-game art program then fair enough. choosing to punch a journalist square in the mug on mass effect, rather than not, does not make me an artist though. i havent created anything, just chosen an option that someone else created. am i an artist when i choose bowser playing mariokart? and the whole notion that games are the only art form thats nothing without a consumer was bollocks i thought, you could easily oppose that opinion by saying that a book on a shelf is nothing without a reader, a picture nothing without someone to look at it. if a game sat on a shelf in a game store, unplayed, is then an unfinished product, what of the unread book? what about those books where you can make decisions? (if you chose to kill them all, skip to page 67 etc) im an artist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 It's the state of games reviews this week. <div style='width:650px;font-size: 12px;'><embed src="http://cdn2.themis-media.com/media/global/movies/player/flowplayer.commercial-3.2.7.swf" flashvars="config=http://www.themis-media.com/videos/config/3587-9a877c24c82dd887c5616405343b1bc1.js%3Fplayer_version%3D2.5%26embed%3D1" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer" width="650" height="391" wmode="opaque"></embed><div><a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com'>The Escapist</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits'>Extra Credits</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3587-Game-Reviews'>Game Reviews</a></div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Thomas Grip, lead designer on Amnesia: Dark Decent also had issues with the 'role of the player' episode and wrote a blog making similar counter points to the ones made here. James Portnow, one of the EC posse turns up in the comments section and explains his point in more detail. A transcript of the points made is here if anyone wants to have a look. It's a bit wordy, mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Sorry, way late. My internet has been stupid lately, not been able to stream videos and even load up sites at times. But online gaming worked with rarely a hitch.. dunno what's going on there.. This week it's racing games.. I mean race in games. <div style='width:650px;font-size: 12px;'><embed src="http://cdn2.themis-media.com/media/global/movies/player/flowplayer.commercial-3.2.7.swf" flashvars="config=http://www.themis-media.com/videos/config/3633-1cd762ccbe11ab5d450238e5be6bac26.js%3Fplayer_version%3D2.5%26embed%3D1" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer" width="650" height="391" wmode="opaque"></embed><div><a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com'>The Escapist</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits'>Extra Credits</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3633-Race-in-Games'>Race in Games</a></div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Reflex Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I think Mass Effect and Fallout 3 did race and minority thing a lot better than LAN. It let you take the situation accordingly, in LAN Phelps was just an arse kissing yes man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I guess he is that, but I think the point is you see that through the way he deals with things; such as race. How to be nice to newbs and not laugh at their lameness. <div style='width:650px;font-size: 12px;'><embed src="http://cdn2.themis-media.com/media/global/movies/player/flowplayer.commercial-3.2.7.swf" flashvars="config=http://www.themis-media.com/videos/config/3662-8e5ad148dc0c80871ffef5831b9197fa.js%3Fplayer_version%3D2.5%26embed%3D1" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer" width="650" height="391" wmode="opaque"></embed><div><a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com'>The Escapist</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits'>Extra Credits</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3662-Sharing-Our-Medium'>Sharing Our Medium</a></div></div> I'm so guilty of taking the controller.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Reflex Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Sorry, this post is going to be ramblomatic. I think with co-op games you have to let the weight rest on them when playing with someone inexperienced. When my missus got a 360 she got two games with it. Forza 2 and some Marvel super heroes shit. She tried Forza 2 but it was way too difficult, she went from gaming on the SNES where you would use the dpad and 2 buttons to play the majority of the game. Now she was faced with analogue sticks and triggers. Think back to how hard it was to use those analogue sticks back when you got your first dual shock back on the PS1. I used to struggle like fuck, and for games where I could use the dpad, I would use the dpad. It wasn't until I played Crash 3 and GT1 that I learned how to use them with any skill, once I'd past that I was ok. At the time all my friends were telling her to get CoD4 because the online was amazing. She duly went out and bought CoD4 and over the duration of about a month she finished the single player. However, when my old TNS clanmates dragged her online, she hated it. She got about 5 kills all night which we all know isn't fun at all. I think at that time I was playing a lot of Gears and she wanted to know what it was, so I pointed her to some vids and told her we could play co-op. She said she didn't like co-op because she'd get her arse kicked, which is where I had to sit and explain that co-op wasn't like player vs player, it was players vs computer. After trying various other single player games, she decided to get GoW and I said I'd play through with her. Those sessions were possibly the most frustrating sessions I've ever had. I was basically playing single handedly, throughout the whole of the game she killed maybe 20 locusts. The bits where you get split up I had to do both sides, after each session I would be that angry that I'd given myself a headache. Also, I think I said "Stay in the light" approximately 5 million times. Anyway, we (I) finished the game up and she was dead chuffed and all that. One day I'm on msn and she sends me a message saying she went and got GoW2. I nearly spit blood because of how frustrated I got last time. We sits down to play it and I decided that I would only kill a locust if she did. Needless to say, we didn't make much progress on that first session. The only time I fully engaged was when she had truly fucked up, that's where I would take control and put it back on the rails. Eventually it got to the point where she was getting quite good compared to where she started. At the latter sections of GoW2 she was even sniping locusts heads off which sort of made me proud. It's now the same with any game I play co-op, I'm more or less been a shadow unless she fucks up, then I step in and retrieve the situation, then I go back to been the henchmen. It really helps for games like Borderlands where there are menus and stuff that can bugger her up if she doesn't listen. The only problem is that the start of every new game is really rocky road as we both get pissed off at each other after I've explained something for the millionth time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 Seems I missed one. Why not to worry about the .S978 bill and a little on Operation Rainfall. <div style='width:650px;font-size: 12px;'><embed src="http://cdn2.themis-media.com/media/global/movies/player/flowplayer.commercial-3.2.7.swf" flashvars="config=http://www.themis-media.com/videos/config/3738-fed1ae040340ddd9729bfb8014130cb8.js%3Fplayer_version%3D2.5%26embed%3D1" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer" width="650" height="391" wmode="opaque"></embed><div><a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com'>The Escapist</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits'>Extra Credits</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3738-S-978-and-Operation-Rainfall'>S.978 and Operation Rainfall</a></div></div> A total filler episode, that's why I forgot about it. This week: Why games fail at pre-production. <div style='width:650px;font-size: 12px;'><embed src="http://cdn2.themis-media.com/media/global/movies/player/flowplayer.commercial-3.2.7.swf" flashvars="config=http://www.themis-media.com/videos/config/3786-16cd2fc04b59311fdf707d29cb785e4d.js%3Fplayer_version%3D2.5%26embed%3D1" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer" width="650" height="391" wmode="opaque"></embed><div><a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com'>The Escapist</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits'>Extra Credits</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3786-The-Pre-Production-Problem'>The Pre-Production Problem</a></div></div> I'm surprised they don't work like they suggest anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Reflex Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Having seen it from the inside I'm surprised any games hit the shelves at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Art Vs. Fun. Fight! <div style='width:650px;font-size: 12px;'><embed src="http://cdn2.themis-media.com/media/global/movies/player/flowplayer.commercial-3.2.7.swf" flashvars="config=http://www.themis-media.com/videos/config/3818-997d00acbd241d928f5d5fb73a424258.js%3Fplayer_version%3D2.5%26embed%3D1" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer" width="650" height="391" wmode="opaque"></embed><div><a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com'>The Escapist</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits'>Extra Credits</a> : <a href='http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3818-Art-Is-Not-the-Opposite-of-Fun'>"Art" Is Not the Opposite of "Fun"</a></div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Reflex Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Another preaching to the choir week. I really liked the art this week as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeDead Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Seems they're not on the Escapist anymore but I found them. They're on Youtube now. Stuff about MMORTSsss <iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/m5rh2OYQLZA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> and more interestingly; game addiction. <iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/00SvIIualUw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERMAN Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I cant remember if it was Joypod or Weekend Confirmed who had something about it last week. Apparently they weren't getting paid and their artist needed an operation, the fans on their (Escapist) forums donated a load, The Escapist then claimed they were entitled a chunk of it, so Extra Credits walked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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