MARVEL Tōkon Fighting Souls

[Maf]

 

He does have a spider-sense move. So maybe he will have a special counter after all. Give me a character with sick mobility, a counter and a command grab, please. 
 

Also the videos out there from TGS are really focusing on tag combos. The beta must have really highlighted most people were playing this like a 1v1 with assists 

[mfnick]

I’ve got access to the beta. Had a handful of matches this morning & I love it. It feels and looks fantastic. The controls are simple yet complicated/slightly confusing. I keep getting mixed up which button does what or will lead to assists but I’m already getting better at it even in my short time. It’s definitely something a bit of practice will easily sort. 
 

It looks incredible. Sure it looks good on trailers & whatnot but actually running natively through the console it’s so much better than even them. I’m still loving the Japanese VO too. Much prefer it to the normal repetitive English barks you usually get in these games. 

[one-armed dwarf]

The reaction online seems a bit mixed. Before this came out people were really down on 2KXO and excited about this but it seems they have swapped places. (Also people are really really keen on that new Avatar/Korra game all of a sudden)

 

Rooflemonger is positive on it but briefly mentions that reaction, says it's too early to say without a training mode and we need to wait and see after launch

 

My sort of uninformed take is it doesn't look that exciting in footage to me, I can't think of a better way to say it other than it doesn't look 'dynamic' maybe (earlier in the thread I said the characters looked like building blocks for universal mechanics, maybe this is what I still feel). Curious what Diaphone will say about it

 

 

[Maf]

People seem really down on the tag system. Not sure what the complaint is exactly. I’ve seen some say that it doesn’t feel rewarding enough, so play 1v1 with an assist. Or the actual mechanic doesn’t feel smooth enough.

[one-armed dwarf]

I've heard that the auto combo scripting kicks in too eagerly which makes combo-building outside of these guardrails a bit difficult, but it also sounds a bit like a thing that could get fixed or toggled off. 

 

A thing I find a bit puzzling about making fighting games 'easier' is you will never make a fighting game easy, not really, there's nothing harder in a game than being in a corner eating ambiguous blockstrings and trying to balance the accounts between when to take risks or what your defensive options are in that situation, or how to stop it happening again. Every single game will have this, in some games it's worse if they don't visually communicate that stuff really well but that's a separate issue. But if you have good matchmaking then theoretically you will always get thrown into matches with people who's skill levels are not so out of reach, unless you have just been abusing a basic knowledge check/gimmick that levels you up really fast and you get caught out like that, but that's on you at that point. 

 

So the focus on trying to make execution as lenient as possible at the skill floor seems like such a double edged sword, especially as a 'difficult' fighter can still be really fun at a lower skill level if the movement is fast and the character identity is appealing. Like, Tekken is the prime example of that, different subgenre but I think it makes the case for deep games that are fun at every level (although I hear nothing but negative things from it these days, lol)

[one-armed dwarf]

Sajam talks about the auto combos, and assist system

 

 

It sounds like the assists are done in a sort of generic way, by which I mean every character's assist has a generic function it pulls out in certain situations. On hit, it does this, on block, does that, walking backwards you get such and such. Crouching assists are anti-airs. There's some small differences like maybe it's a projectile and it sounds like the back assist do more unique things, but on hit/block you always get this 'tackle' which I guess creates pressure, maybe spacing or combos. I'm not sure, it's not like I'm deep into it. But player expression sounds a bit smothered by how general everything is, character identity is really limited. 

 

His issue with auto combos is similar to what I heard on Max's stream, that they make it very hard to actually create your own combos cause auto combos hijack them all the time.

 

I'm not a comic book person but I think one of the things that makes a video game about comic book characters interesting is how much of their identity is in their powers, they literally name themselves after their abilities a lot of the time. So it just seems to get that completely wrong, to me. At least with this assist system. 

 

I wonder if they could take the game back, delay it and rework/rethink this. There's so many fighting games coming out and this looks so boring compared to a lot of the competition imo

[mfnick]

I’m the complete opposite. As a casual fighting game fan I think this is great fun. The counter and blocking reversal are really lenient even a dummy like me can turn it around on a really aggressive player. Definitely not boring. 
 

The auto stuff works really well imo too. I much prefer how it works in this compared to SF VI for example. & I’ve really become a fan of every character having the same inputs for abilities (I did use to hate that) & it being down to remembering which each of those abilities does and when to use them.

 

My only concern is how stop/start it can sometimes feel. The way it jumps to cinematic specials which you’re probably using a lot could probably get a bit much. It didn’t during my time but, from extended play, maybe. They’re like the DB FighterZ ones but they’re a lot snappier and shorter from memory. 

 

 

 

[Maf]

It’s not bad to make the game accessible, the issue is the skill ceiling. If you can do a bunch of complicated things but why bother, or it’s not that much harder or different than doing the auto combo, that’s the problem. 
 

Especially as this is Arcsys’ attempt at a really mainstream thing. They do need to keep the game fun for button mashers. Dragon Ball was big in anime/video game circles, but Marvel will just get more eyes. So maybe even more than that 

 

What I wonder is are they struggling to make a 4v4 game while keeping it accessible. Maybe they just don’t mix 

[one-armed dwarf]

That is sort of what I'm getting at with the Tekken example, even if a 3d fighter is an apple to oranges example that is a series where the skill floor is underneath the crust and the ceiling in space, which works well for the longevity of the game. Or it would, in Tekken's case, if their last couple patches hadn't put the game in a bad place.

 

I think the way that SF did modern controls was mostly sensible as there's advantages and drawbacks to it that everyone has to be aware of, but it also offloads a lot of the execution and frontloads decision making for people who would find it more motivating to think more of the latter early on and worry less about the former. I mean, someone got to final 8 in one Evo, I think, with a modern Chun Li. In principle, auto combos should be the same in that regard, but it sounds like some of its side-impacts aren't being as delicately managed as they could, with questions raised about its impact on expression and decision making and it's putting the game in a position where it's longevity is already in question (Sajam says he finds the game fun, but isn't sure he will feel that way after a while). 

 

The thing they've got to balance is onboarding but also how to long-term motivate players to stick with the game and improve. The interlocking game decisions are important to get right regardless of whether someone is casual or more committed to sticking with the game, especially as someone who's casual might then decide they want to keep playing also. 

 

But they've released a massive questionnaire for players so I guess they would take notice of a lot of the obvious points of feedback. 

 

I also don't like the wall smashing stuff, but in Strive the idea with that is they don't want people to be locked in the corner defending ambigious pressure for an entire match. So they design the game so that you smash through the wall for resources and frame advantage, with a neutral reset. In practice, people just came up with 'slump' resets that kept them there anyway, and then smashed for the extra advantage. Or that's what it was at one point, I guess it could have changed with a lot of the new mechanics

[Maf]

I really don’t like the wall mechanics in this either where it grants an extra team mate. I don’t see the logic. It seems arbitrary. I’m no fighting game expert but also the idea that a tag game locks out your tags until you start losing or unlock them after a weird condition just seems wrong? I’m hoping when the game comes out there’s a pure 4v4 mode where each player starts with their whole team. But I doubt it.

 

Also, before this game is damned to death, it does need to come out first. It’s literally in development. Although yes the fact that they’re letting people play it means it’s very far along in development.

 

People also said Strive was a baby game when it came out as well, though. Which maybe, but that game is fun as fuck. Arcsys still have mostly hits under their belt, so it’s worth staying optimistic, even if there’s definitely room for doubt as well 

[DisturbedSwan]

Isn’t this under NDA? 
 

I’ve been playing too but was reticent to say anything lol.

[one-armed dwarf]

I mean, all the FG people online have videos out on it with their takes, positive and negative, so I don't see why it would be. 

 

Diaphone has a vid out now

 

 

[DisturbedSwan]

I echo Nick’s thoughts on this really, ton of fun, feels intuitive and easy to get into without knowing some ridiculous hard to press combo. 
 

Put a smile on my face. 

[Maf]

Looks like the game is going to be around £55. Seems good. Slightly premium for a fighting game but considering it’s ‘exclusive’ and the licenses involved, seems good

 

https://hit.co.uk/products/marvel-tokon-fighting-souls-ps5

[DisturbedSwan]

Lovely stuff.

[Maf]

 

Making changes to the mechanics based of feedback so far. 
 

After playing DBFZ, Strive and now looking at this. It seems like Arcsys seems to have a pattern of making games with a lot of limitations and safe choices and then getting looser and more crazy with each patch/year of release. Hopefully with this feedback and incoming changes they release the game with less worry about how crazy it is. 
 

I guess it’s a design choice. Release the game in a simpler state to not scare people off and adjust things as you go. Maybe making it more complicated. Or release the game fucking crazy and reel it in with each patch to make it more balanced. 
 

2XKO seem like it tried the latter and it didn’t work out so far. I trust Arcsys overall. But judging by the feedback and their acknowledgment of that, hopefully Tokon releases in it’s Year 2/3 version out of the gate 

[Maf]

They announced Peni Parker as a new character and now Peni, Spidey, Star Lord and Ms Marvel are a new team “The Amazing Guardians”

 

 

This is currently getting roasted as “Team miscellaneous” because wtf is this team lol.
 

Hope the next team reveal are either “real” teams or have a strong concept behind the group   
 

That said I expect Marvel to announce a comic tomorrow with this line-up, as they’re never slow to jump on any opportunity to make a new book, so it will be a “real” team

soon enough 

[Maf]

4 Avengers, assemble 

[Maf]

I swear I noticed this at 3am last night I just forgot to say. I been clobbered by this shit too many times to not spot it immediately 

 

 

 

There’s other Potemkin moves (and Broly from DBFZ) in Hulk as well. 

I get there’s only so much you can do with fighting game characters but I hate seeing recycled shit in different games (One of my main beefs with Elden Ring, Donkey Kong Bananza, etc) 

[Maf]

I said Carnage was mega Zato but I was wrong he is mega Axl