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Guilty Gear -Strive-


HandsomeDead
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It's not really that similar, fighting games are much more disciplined and controlled with how you press the buttons. In DMC you can press everything as fast as you can and there's no psychology to analyse. About the only carryover between games like that is DMC already equipped me with the ability to be able to press lots of different buttons fast, in fact the way I access face buttons on a controller is not unlike the way you to it on an arcade stick (claw grip). SO I think something like that Leo guy with the holding down buttons for stances is something I could get good at

 

I think my main weakness right now is I want to go unga bunga on everyone all the time, but then I don't block enough. When the unga just works right it feels great tho 

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Kind of a tangent but this is something I wanted to talk about earlier and why fighting games are so hard. It's all just the timing. 

 

Now I get that GG is a hardcore fighting game series so this is not the game for it. But take DBFZ for example. In many ways DBFZ is super dumbed down. All the characters play the same, a lot of universal mechanics, a lot of auto combos, the most difficult input in the game is quarter circle back. Like it's very simple. 

 

But it all kind of doesn't matter because the windows for actually connecting moves together is just as strict as GG, just a little bit easy because autocombos link the difficult parts together, but the difficult parts are still difficult and can end up with spending an hour in the training room trying to do one combo. 

 

Again GG is not the game for this. But if anyone ever tries to make a truly accessible fighting game for everyone then I don't think the answer is to simplify inputs, or put homing attacks in it. Just loosen up how strict the frame data is on getting moves to land. You don't even have to go crazy. If the window to string moves together was loosened by even a few frames or a fraction of a second it would be so much better.

 

In theory. Maybe it would make it worse because everybody can easily combo the shit out of everyone else and it takes the fun and challenge away but when I'm sitting in the Dojo trying to string a combo together for the 100th time it's like man. If only the timing was not so obnoxious. 

 

My 2 pennies I don't care. 

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I dunno apparently the community around this series considers that Strive is already the dumbed down version. 

 

Not a fighting game guy but there's always a push/pull between lowering skill floor and maintaining the skill ceiling or richness of the game in general. Which I can't comment on WRT to this game but still

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And GG is not the game for it. But playing this and DBFZ and realising the struggle to both of them is the same despite the fact that DBFZ is super casual in comparison, I'm looking at it and thinking that's where the struggle is. It isn't even about speed or having to hit buttons too fast. Some combos only work if you delay or buffer shit by like 5 frames or something silly. It's like huh? If a fighting game went a bit easier on that side you wouldn't need dumber controls, super dashes or burst mechanics. I don't think those are the ideas that really make fighting games accessible. 

 

Having said all that the challenge of it is super fun. When you finally do land those combos and those strict timings become closer to second nature it is fun. I just find myself at times playing these games thinking why do you have to be such a dick. I'm hitting these buttons ultra precise and fast already. What more do you want. 

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1 hour ago, Maf said:

Just loosen up how strict the frame data is on getting moves to land.

 

Most modern fighting games already do this. In SFIV you had to hit some buttons at the perfect frame (1/60th of a second) for it to combo. Third Strike demanded that you master something called charge partitioning for certain characters, which means using a character that has moves you need to charge by holding back, and then hitting any other forward direction for just the right amount of frames so that the game still has the charge input buffered but you can reposition yourself to optimise a combo.

 

Compared to this modern fighting games are already super lenient. But there's also a limit for this as well. If they give you a window of ten frames to hit the next button, that means the opponent has to reel back from your attack an additional 10 frames as well. It would make the game look like it's being played in slow-motion, like a Zack Snyder action scene. Of course the remedy for this is to have the buffer apply before hitstun activates, but that would mean that you could hit your buttons ten frames too early and by then your game just turns into a mashfest with dial-combos like Mortal Kombat, which some people like, but I find rather unrewarding.

 

I don't know the intricacies of Strive's systems and how inputs are registered, but one problem these games have due the way they are animated (not fluent motions, but these cut-off anime animations instead) is that you can't visually tell all the time when a limb is getting retracted etc. That means on defense it's hard to learn what is safe and what isn't but on offense it also means that you don't always have a visual cue as to when you can press your button because your previous attack still looks like it's still hitting the opponent. But that's all just muscle memory anyway. If these game were easy to get into they'd be as popular as Fortnite. Just to put the learning process into perspective: It took me over a 1000 matches to feel comfortable with playing Rose in SFV, and that is just a new character in a game that I've been playing regularly since 2016. There's no shortcut. You're playing this for a couple of days now, see again how you fare in a month or two. And by then you'll only have the basics down.

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Yeah, you make a lot of good points and are considering aspects I would never think of. 

 

I did play DBFZ for like 2 months and had about 150 ranked matches + casual matches + fighting Handsomedead + maybe 30 hours racked up in the training room. So it's not a 1000 matches but I've put in some time. The parts where you have to connect moves never really gets easier for me though. I get used to it and more successful with practice. But it never made learning the next combo easier. I can learn one combo, but when moving to the next one it's like resetting back to 0. The feel of how that specific part of these games work just never gets natural. 

 

I like both GG and DBFZ a lot, too. I'm not trying to say they're wrong in how they handle combos and such. I really enjoy that part of the game.  As high as the rewards are for learning it, there are times of frustration though where it's like you can't make a minor adjustment? Just a tiny, tiny bit more lenient? 

 

You probably can't without sacrificing the game. It's such an incredibly difficult hurdle I think. 

 

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Don't really feel like I'm maining anybody. I guess Gio. But I've been playing around with Millia and Chip, too. I really want to learn those characters. 

 

EDIT: Just for the record I didn't mean to come on here and whine about the game being too hard. I think GG is awesome and I'm having a really good time with it. It's just the exact same roadblock for me and it gets annoying. The game is rad, though, I don't want it to come across like I'm saying otherwise. 

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I want to get away from Gio. She's fun but I get the sense she's super easy for other people to read. Because her moveset is so limited and there's less cognitive overhead required to punish her as a result.

 

I've been trying Chip too, and Sol. But as said I really want to see if I can learn a weird character like Ni-o or whatever she's called

 

This round here is like the only time I got that dust kick and wall smash thing to work, it seems pretty hard to pull off in fights. Prior to this tho its just constant baiting and punishment by Blondy

 

But my favourite fights in this game are the ones where I lose most but not all rounds, cause its where I feel the most learning happening

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Yeah winning and losing is not super important to me it's playing well and improvement which is what I'm looking for. If I lose but I lost because I made a mistake and played badly then it's annoying. But if I lose but played really well and can see how I'm patching holes in my play as I go i feel really good about it. 

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47 minutes ago, Maf said:

I did play DBFZ for like 2 months and had about 150 ranked matches + casual matches + fighting Handsomedead + maybe 30 hours racked up in the training room. So it's not a 1000 matches but I've put in some time. The parts where you have to connect moves never really gets easier for me though. I get used to it and more successful with practice. But it never made learning the next combo easier. I can learn one combo, but when moving to the next one it's like resetting back to 0. The feel of how that specific part of these games work just never gets natural. 

 

Sounds completely normal to me. You made progress but it was slow progress, and that's exactly how fighting games work. If you watch a pro playing at a tournament and watch him again a year later you can see just how much more comfortable they look. It's the same for everyone, there's no DBZ time chamber thing. 

 

Imagine trying to learn the piano and wondering why you can't play Chopin after two months. 

 

You're already approaching it correctly by setting yourself little goals. Working on combo Y until it becomes second nature and then going for another one is better than just trying to do a bit of everything right off the bat.

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1 hour ago, Maf said:

I can learn one combo, but when moving to the next one it's like resetting back to 0. The feel of how that specific part of these games work just never gets natural.

I’m like this. 
Ive had it with every fighting game, I just seem to hit a pretty low ceiling where I can’t really get any better too no matter how much I play. Similar to Rocket League, say I’ve put 100 hours into that, but from about 50 hours ive not improved one bit. I’m probably still at the same level competitively as I was at hour 50. Same with fighting games, I just don’t seem to get any better after a point. Within limits of course. Obviously I probably would get better with infinite time but I’d have to give up basically all other games to just improve slightly and I’d still be shit compared to others people. The amount of effort it takes me just to learn one combo is exhausting too, so doing anything passed that is too much. 
 

I’m ok being a casual fan. Still looking forward to picking this up in future. 

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What that? That’s nuthin’. I do that in my sleep. The only reason you don’t see me do it is because I’m too good for it. I don’t need to be sneaky and use all these parlour tricks. I’ve got my own fighting skills that’ll blow anything you’ve seen out of the water. That’s why I’m the champ.

 

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Maf said he had trouble getting off supers, I had a match last night with a Gio (mirror fight, we both Gio) who was pretty evenly matched except for the fact they always used meter for RC and never supers. Which made them super easy to read and I trashed them. It was like one less thing I had to think about. Even if they had whiffed a super it would turn it into something I'd have to consider

 

The good thing is lots of characters have identical inputs for supers it looks like. So once you develop that muscle memory it's quite general

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I'm probably gonna get beat by Maf at this point.  I needed a bit of a break but I tried to play a little today since I don't wanna get too far behind.  It didn't go too badly.  I'm now having problems getting in on Ram and Potemkin.  I need a way of dealing with them because my usual 'get in and take them to mix-up city' doesn't work as well as they're really good a keeping you out with their massive buttons.

 

I did try to use Leo a little, I think I want to learn him as a secondary character.  I won't be showing him for a while, though.

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I haven't played online since last weekend and since only tried Chip and Millia out for about 20 minutes each in the training room. I was thinking about streaming the game tonight. Deciding how much humiliation I want to share with other people. 

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