Final Fantasy VII Remake (NO ROCHE SLANDER)

[Maf]

But I needed all my MP for lighting magic! And I refuse to use potions. 

[one-armed dwarf]

Well, they don't let you use potions on hard mode, but that's a mode designed with the idea that you already know everything from normal mode. 

 

It's like playing Dark Souls blind without estus. I dunno, you do you I guess. I've beaten this boss without healing but only after getting good at the game. This game might still have better combat than Rebirth, or I prefer parts of it even if Rebirth is more skill driven. But it takes learning. 

 

Here's my old video from the demo, looking back at it all I see is sloppiness. Why the fuck do I keep interrupting Cloud's square combo to do his charge attack, what's with the unnecessary dodge rolls in certain situations, or interrupting Barret's gun to time waste with an overcharge, stupid. 

 

 

[Metroid66]

I don't think you have enough knowledge/experience for that boss if you're going in cold. I remember the demo put me off buying the game because that boss seemed unreasonable. Of course when you know about stagger and how to apply it you can do him in 2 minutes.

 

Just a pity the second game was such a repetitive load of shite and the characters so cringey. I'll never see the story out now, just can't bear another moment with that bunch of overrated annoyances.

[one-armed dwarf]

I don't really agree tbh, I think it states its mechanics pretty plain. The reason the characters are so chatty in that fight is to tutorialise mechanics (listen to Barret beg maf over and over to use a heal spell lol). The characters explain the targeting laser as well, then it's basically just block projectiles, avoid the telegraphed AOEs.

 

Maybe my perspective is skewed a bit, but this boss is actually the first thing I ever played in FFVII Remake. At 2019 gamescom in their demo they started you in the boss room. Think there were two basic fights against those weird floating monolaser robots that don't do anything, then it's Mr Scorpion with Barret giving me tips in German. I still beat that guy up even if I couldn't tell which spell was fire or lightning lol 

 

I think when you get to FFVII Rebirth then the battles do get way more incoherent at times, with worse/often no attack telegraphing, like they expect you to pause the action far more often. The enemies move around like DMC but you have to fight them more or less with the same systems.

 

Thinking on it, maybe the reason I feel differently is cause I come from playing FFXIV. In that game, every move has a tooltip that appears over the bosses head, you read the tooltip and work it out via context. FFVIIR works exactly the same way tho simpler as an action game versus a complicated MMO with group coordination. Maybe if you don't have that habit already then the battles just seem like random chaos, I guess I could see that (EM field is a good example, you react to the tooltip not to the appearance of the AOE charging up)

[Maf]

I didn’t see the tooltip I reacted to the blue electric charging circle 

 

I think if I could get over the combat I would really like this game. Yes the dungeons are a bit boring and it’s a lot of grey but I still really like FF7 and I really like this remake. I think most of the stuff they’ve done is so cool and still not had it spoiled so would like to get to the end and then move on to Rebirth. 
 

But the fighting annoys me so much.
 

I’ve got a half day today so going to finish South of Midnight then come back to this and just try to relax, and read everything, and hope I get it

 

Though considering the first boss kicked the shit out of me we will see how it goes

[one-armed dwarf]

imo (thoughts on the stream gameplay on the other page, ignore if uninterested in more backseating)
 

Spoiler

Yeah so the tooltip is key tbh, it's how the 'turns' work in the game. Not every attack is indicated by a tooltip tho (Airbuster's jazz hands come to mind) and it's my biggest problem with Rebirth which turns it into more of an action game without as good telegraphing as Remake. But there are lots of enemy gimmicks later on where by the time you see it, it's too late, cause the tooltip is what you're supposed to react to (but again, not always)

 

There's a certain late game boss that'll fuck you up that uses the tooltip for his attacks.

 

All you really need to do is slow down I think (and heal ffs), you play too aggressively so it's no wonder you're not seeing the tooltips. I can kind of play aggressively in my vid only cause I learned all the fights off by heart cause I just hyperfixate on learning them. But it really is just trying to be an abstraction of turn based combat with an action facade. The X button is really useful to just pause everything and look at stuff.

 

Ironically when you play Rebirth, aggression is key. They fuck you around like that in that game. That is literally an action game, the facade is no more you're parrying and doing aerial raves and team up combos.

 

Other thing is you hardly ever use guard. In Remake most damage is mitigated via guard than outright dodged, a salvo of missiles is nearly impossible to dodge. EM field tho is a local AOE so obviously dodge is the way.

 

Barrett's steelskin move is cool also, it gives him some armour against getting interrupted by weaker attacks (like the scorpion machine gun). Still takes damage but can cast and do stuff through it

 

Personally tho I don't know how people get anything out of this game without enjoying the fighting, everything outside that is really boring I found, so much padding. Rebirth imo has a much better balance but people are really polarised on that one. Can't appreciate some Fort Condor, pff

[Maf]

Even though I’m not the biggest FF7 fan and only really like disc 1 of the original (as it’s the bit I played over and over through the years and pretty much always drop off when leaving Midgar) I really do have a lot of nostalgia for it. Some of it might even be indirect nostalgia because FF7 was such a big game for one of my favourite times in video games the music, characters and overall look just do a lot for me 

 

So even though I get irate over the combat, what really annoys me about it is I want to like the game, because there are all these other parts I really do like and think are cool

 

Now you mention padding I do remember there’s a bit in this remake where you have to run around for an hour to get some pizza. So not all of exceptional video gaming 

 

But I dunno. The nostalgia play still works for me here. I just need to learn how to actually play it 

[one-armed dwarf]

The padding is moreso from a quarter of the way in, when they send you to the second reactor and turn a single screen from the 97 game into an hour long boring dungeon, and then turn the screen right after it into an even longer and more boring dungeon. And they keep doing that and it gets worse over time, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with Hojo's terrible section in the Shinra tower

 

Remake is like a DMC5 situation for me, I think its combat is incredible but everything surrounding it can often be pretty terrible. Rebirth fixes most of it which is why it's one of my all time faves, just like that, they needed to get the fuck away from this game's bad Uncharted clone level design (which tbf is still in Rebirth, but you get to take breaks from it) and let us do whatever we want, even if the story is non-existent, the characters childish and the stakes quickly evaporating into 'who cares anymore' territory ala MCU multiverse films

[Maf]

I’m so confused by Cloud and Sephiroth’s interactions in this game. It doesn’t help that I only half remember the story of the original. I would almost be better served by knowing nothing. 

[Maf]

I hate this game 

 

 

[mfnick]

Maf being bad at games again. Love to see it. 

[one-armed dwarf]

I really don't get how people can get on with something like Sekiro or Dark Souls but get stuck on this game's combat.

 

I think people look at it and interpret it as being like DMC, when it's closer to Sekiro but with additional resources and less rigidity. But there's still this FROM-style nature of commitment to attacks and understanding the right defensive options, which gets steadily more complicated in Rebirth. You can't just keep mashing square, and you don't want to overcap too often on ATB cause that makes fights take longer so you take more damage and lose opportunities. They added animation cancelling to the Intergrade version specifically, which wasn't in the PS4 version, but the same approach still applies even if it's more permissive

 

I'm not speaking to maf specifically there cause I don't think he played Sekiro, but it's such a polarizing battle system in a way that FROM games aren't and I don't really understand why. It seems really intuitive to me but a lot of people don't naturally get on with it for some reason. Eventually the brute force facerolling gets less and less possible as well so it's not like the game gets more fun later when you get more skills cause you're fighting less permissive threats at that point too

[Maf]

I don’t even realise my ATB gauge is full. I know there’s a little sound effect but it’s a very tiny ding in a sea of noise. This might not be a good solution, as the game is visually dense already, but I wish Cloud glowed or something when he could do a special move. I wish it stood out instead of having to check all the time
 

This is not like Dark Souls at all. I get so annoyed when people say Souls game’s are hard when they have the easiest fighting system around. They are not hard, they are punishing. Which is entirely different thing. You attack, roll and remember boss patterns that’s the full depth of it. 

 

Where as here I’m confused by the entire concept of Tifa. She’s so useless. It was really funny because in the first fight where I got to use her a tutorial note popped up and said she’s master hand-to-hand fighter or something. But the game ‘froze’ to read the tool tip and it froze as she was being grabbed and chomped on by a little grub guy. I thought how perfect.

 

I dunno. I just don’t get it at all

 

EDIT: I also hate how the Asses thing is a skill and costs an action to use. I don’t know how it should work. I wouldn’t want it to be ‘free’ because what would be the point. But I hate having to waste my first action on it. 
 

I also don’t think I understand how to use magic in this game. Does hitting an enemy’s weakness not apply pressure?

 

I was hoping to have a change of mind this time around but I still kinda hate it 

[one-armed dwarf]

The point I'm making with the Souls comparison is it's meant to be played fairly deliberately, when you lose an interaction in Souls you go on the defense, you don't immediately run back in mashing attack (you do this a lot in both your streams).

 

It's not about difficulty so much as it is about the way both games have very grounded, pseudo-turn based combat that's about taking advantage of openings and Souls is the easiest reference point as everyone groks the idea of that game's combat quite quickly, cause it makes it clear via its punishing design that you don't play carelessly. In the more basic Souls games, you dodge an attack and punish. Gets way more complex in Elden Ring with the long attack strings, but the interaction is still intrinsically supposed to be that way.  

 

IMO the FFVII games are like a basic hybrid of Souls and RTWP.

 

I think what happens with Remake is when you fuck up, you don't die, you lose 10 percent of your health bar. So people get stuck in a war of attrition with the games systems and grind their way miserably through, is my best bet based on these streams. Ironically if the game was as punishing as Souls is, I think people would immediately figure out and play more patiently. 

 

Like

30 minutes ago, Maf said:

Which is entirely different thing. You attack, roll and remember boss patterns that’s the full depth of it. 

Remake also works this way on a base level. Less emphasis on roll and a bit more on block and attacking is more complicated and multi-faceted, but it is the same core idea here.

 

It's not like God of War (PS2) or DMC, where you can just keep attacking and attacking

 

Tifa is really powerful, probably the best all-round character in the game or at least toe to toe with Cloud but only once you unlock stuff and get materia which emphasizes those strengths

 

TL;DR, IMO, play the game slower and maybe it'll click. Maybe this won't help, I dunno. But I was struggling with how fast and difficult some enemies are in Rebirth and I started to get more in the habit of just using the 'X' menu to stop and look at everything (mostly just the first minute until the party gets momentum). I think it's a good way to go. Can look janky but it makes things work

 

 

 

WRT magic and pressure it works like that sometimes, some enemies have unique gimmicks and others dont

[Metroid66]

The assess reveals how they're pressured.

You've been so disgusted at spending the point you haven't been bothered to read the result.

[Nag]

Tbf I'm with maf on this... I kind've hate the combat for various reasons but I could always fall back on liking the characters and story... then they went and fucked even that up in the sequel...

 

I'll also say that this is what? Your third try at getting in to this game maf? I reckon it's not gonna happen... you can't force yourself to like something and to be fair given some of your more recent posts I'm not sure your in the right headspace for gaming at the moment anyway, it sounds like you've been having a torrid time with most things.

 

Not having a dig by the way... just something I've thought for a little bit (forgive me if I'm wrong)

[one-armed dwarf]

I mean I am definitely an advocate for just sodding things off. Not to re-ignite old wars but I did it with Stellar Blade cause, fundamentally, I found it awful to play in the same way I imagine maf finds this game. 

 

Sometimes it just be like that. See also Sekiro, I'm not going to get on with it so won't force it anymore (tho I also tried that game twice before giving up permanently)

 

edit wrt Rebirth comment below, while I do like it more than Remake I also find it over-designed in certain ways, and maybe part 3 needs to be a 'Doom Dark Ages' sort of retreat from that

[mfnick]

Mental.

This is one of the greatest combat systems ever created. Rebirth has started to slip into being over complicated and busy but here it’s fantastic.

 

Edit - yea I agree, don’t feel bad for sacking it off though. Too many games out there to waste time on ones you don’t like. Gave it a fair shot, done.

[one-armed dwarf]

I'm sorta tempted to stream remake now from the bombing mission but my internet is too shitty I think

[Maf]

I think a lot of the problem for me is things just aren’t spelled out enough. Like I can’t tell when Cloud is in Operator or Punisher mode by just looking at him. I should be able to just look at it and know

 

Same with the ATB gauges. It needs fighting game level meters where I just know I’ve got it and it’s ready to go

 

Same as enemy weapon names. Until Dearf mentioned it the other day I didn’t even see them 

 

Sometimes I get hit by attacks from the opponent that I can’t see so don’t know I should be blocking as well. It happens against that motorbike guy earlier where he hit me with an ice spell. I didn’t even see him cast it (btw he might be the worst character of all time. I straight up skipped a cutscene with him when streaming because I absolutely do not want to listen to that shit at all)