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Microtransactions and Sighs


Jimboxy
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16 minutes ago, Nag said:

 

That has to work both ways though... and it's a fact that some people just don't care about these things being in games (me included)

 

This is a dance that will keep on going, both sides can yell at each other until we're blue in the face... if you hate them fine, if you aren't bothered fine.

The problem with that, aside from you not taking your own advice, is you can't have change without change. If you believe that loot box mechanics are gambling and take advantage of people, in particular are aimed at children, then you want them gone. If you think they affect game design then you want them gone. They can't both be gone and remain. 

 

Bear in mind, loot boxes were a change themselves. Before mtx and dlc you used to get outfits and stuff as rewards, now it's rare (I was going to say Resident Evil 2 but were some of the outfits part of the deluxe edition?) 

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On 28/02/2019 at 23:07, mfnick said:

Very true. What makes Activision being massive wankers in that occasion was the fact it was a remaster where they’d purposely not included all the maps and dlc and made people buy them again at a higher price than they were originally. IN A REMASTER!!!! Fucking unforgivable IMO. If you’re re-releasing/ remastering a game it should come with all the content/DLC that was available for it. Scum. 

But this is a different issue that goes all the way back to release. Nothing to do with this really. 

Agreed. That is all.

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I don't agree with the definition of lootboxes as gambling. Yes they are dumb and shit but nowhere in lootboxes do you have the problems of people chasing their losses which is one of the key things which drives compulsive gambling. A different term is needed for compulsive lootbox buying because these distinctions are really important, otherwise there's just no point. It's just not the same thing.

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10 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

I don't agree with the definition of lootboxes as gambling. Yes they are dumb and shit but nowhere in lootboxes do you have the problems of people chasing their losses which is one of the key things which drives compulsive gambling. A different term is needed for compulsive lootbox buying because these distinctions are really important, otherwise there's just no point. It's just not the same thing.

that's not true, you'll get people buying Ultimate Team packs because they're after certain players or longer contracts etc

 

not that that's the definition of gambling anyway

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20 minutes ago, one-armed dwarf said:

I don't agree with the definition of lootboxes as gambling. Yes they are dumb and shit but nowhere in lootboxes do you have the problems of people chasing their losses which is one of the key things which drives compulsive gambling.  

I don’t agree. I have a bit of a addictive personality so have to be careful engaging with that type of stuff. It’s not too bad, I can control it but it is always naggging me when I see them. 

Anyway I’ve personally felt that feeling of chasing losses. In Rocket League, the only game I’ve ever bought them in. In a set of crates it had a awesome looking paint and some wheels I wanted. I bought a set of keys, just got crappy decals. But then I got that feeling of “well I’ve put this much money in, chanaces are I’ll get it next time.” I purchased another 15 keys. Still didn’t get what I wanted, so I’m well over £10+ down and got nothing I want to show for it. I almost did it again, but I knew I couldn’t afford it and managed to stop myself at that point and not bought any since. I know £10-20 doesn’t sound much if I’d have been a bit less strong willed I wouldn’t have definitely kept plowing more and more

noney into it. That was just the point I reached before realising what was happening and stoping it. But, the urge is definitely still there. The trading system helps now too. Not ideal though, especially since it needs organising outside the game usually. 

 

The battle pass style thing is another small gripe. You’re basically buying for the ability to unlock items through old style normal progression rather than luck. So we’re basically paying to be able to unlock stuff like we used to before lootboxes became a thing. However I don’t have as much of a problem with this if the base game has a set of progress unlocks to start with. Obviously it costs money to create the new assets so I don’t mind them charging to be able to get them. Again, as long as the base game has its own set of stuff to unlock through progress as well and not down to blind luck. 

 

Also, excellent post @RikSP, basically agree with all that and worded it better than I ever could. 

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I don't think either of those examples fits chasing ones losses. I'm talking about the compulsion to keep spending to reverse the damage already made on bad bets.

 

Getting the skin you want isn't chasing your losses. You don't negate all the money spent by getting the skin

 

This might not be the single thing which defines problem gambling but it's pretty important in my view. It's what gets people into a dangerous cycle.

 

The only thing that fits that I can think of is that after market selling of skins in CS GO. Most loot box driven games do not have this as far as I know.

 

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It does IMO. I’m chasing my £10 loss because I’ve got nothing to show for it which I want. So I spend more money hoping I get something this time because in my head the chances are now going to be higher since I’ve already spent £10 and not got anything I want. And if I get something gen that original £10 hasn’t gone to waste.  

Its near enough the exact same feeling I get when chasing that £X amount I’ve lost in the casino. In that case I’m trying to get my losses back. In Rocket League I’m spending more to try and stop that original £10 spend being a waste.

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Let’s go back to my Overwatch obsession, playing Mercy a lot. Halloween skin comes out and it never drops for me. Time is running out before it goes away for at least a year, maybe never again.

I really want that skin but I don’t buy a loot box to boost my chances of getting it.

 

But let’s say I did buy one and it didn’t drop. Then I buy another and it doesn’t drop. And so on and so on.

I’m not chasing a financial drop to get my money back, but the core idea is exactly the same. It’s the same psychology and the same thought process.

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I would call that a very fuzzy definition of making your losses back. Unless you place immense personal value in spending £50 getting a skin that could have cost as little as £10. If lootboxes could be covered by gambling regulations then the terminology needs to be a lot more precise.

 

People get themselves into debt with gambling. They gamble even further to cover their debt. Gambling is devestating to people precisely cause of the tantalising prospect that all the damage can be made to go away if they just keep spending more money. This is the biggest addiction trigger. Getting a new outfit for Tracer doesn't compare.

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To me it's no more gambling than buying a pack of Panini stickers. You could consider it adjacent to gambling maybe but it is not the exact same thing.

 

I make this argument cause lots of governments are asking this question themselves. Our own government in Ireland found that lootboxes did not fall under the existing legalese. Which is why I think a new definition is needed rather than forcing a badly fitting one.

 

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-10-01-loot-boxes-fall-within-normal-consumer-law-not-gambling-legislation-says-irish-government

"As reported by Irish Legal News, Stanton argued that loot boxes "fall within normal consumer law" rather than gambling legislation."

"Where a game offers the possibility of placing a bet or the taking of risk for financial reward within the game, then, in my view it must be licensed as a gambling product..." he said.

"However, it should be understood, that if a game offers in-game purchases - be they loot boxes, skins, etc. - which are promoted to gamers as increasing their chances of success, such purchases are essentially a commercial or e-commerce activity."

 

TL;DR,.no payout therefore not gambling.

 

The UK, France, Denmark and New Zealand came to the same conclusions. Belgium is the exception.

 

That doesn't mean also that vulnerable people shouldn't be protected but I find the conflation of lootbox games with gambling to be pretty gross cause of how much more damaging one is over the other.  In my view it trivialises a terrible thing.

 

I'd hate for anyone to get the impression tho that I share Blakey's POV and think lootboxes are great and people love them, cause I do think they're rubbish and can't get my head around the idea of buying them. I got out of that when I got bored of Pokémon cards.

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Its degrees of a similar thing.  Gambling addiction can be a life ruining thing and loot boxes will never have the same impact. 

 

I'm not sure about going into the psychological effects as obviously loot boxes tickle the same part as gambling but I just think more that they are a poor reward system. 

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I’d agree it’s not the same thing as “proper” gambling. It should have its own classification. But as others have said, it stimulates that same part of your brain and I don’t think it’s that far removed. If you’re wired that way and you get into them. Eurogamer ran a article on someone who had spent 10’s of thousands on micro transactions and we hear of these whales who spend thousands in these games, it’s because it targets that same feeling as gambling. Even if it isn’t necessarily the same thing to the letter and not quite as damaging in 99% of cases.  &  as you say while Most haven’t found it to be gambling  Belgium has, so there’s definitely a argument to be made for each side. 

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1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Let’s go back to my Overwatch obsession, playing Mercy a lot. Halloween skin comes out and it never drops for me. Time is running out before it goes away for at least a year, maybe never again.

 

This also effects the peoples playing habits as well. I remember me and @Duck having "Just a few more games" to try and push you over the edge into getting another lootbox. That's the other thing these games dangle lootboxes in your face for, they want you to stick around for longer than you normally would because more people going for the dangling carrot means more players on the server and therefore more people to strut about to and show off the skins if you have them . If the servers are dead then so are the prospects of making money on MTX.

 

It's the same argument of when Star Wars Battlefront II came out and people legitimised their purchase by stating that they'd never buy any MTX. That's fine, but you're putting up a population for those that do. They are using you as a body filling the servers as eyes to look upon the people that feel strongly about cosmetics and buy into it. The backlash should have carried through to nobody buying it, but Star Wars and "They're sorting it out" meant people felt OK with it. EA knew exactly what it was doing before all the furore. They were targeting the softest part of the market by putting out a very casual friendly game and hoping to get away with huge gains like they do with the sports stuff they put out.

 

The crazy thing is the whole thing is dead easy to fall into. I'm playing Anthem right now and I'm hoarding these coins the game throws at you and checking on the stuff you can buy with them. Right now it feels like it's all part of the game, but as soon as they start adding stuff and the coins start to dry up because you can't earn them fast enough the whole thing's going to start feeling predatory. Sure, it's great I'm having Coins thrown at me for doing everything now, but eventually that front loading is going to end and the only way to keep up is playing religiously or coughing up real money if something really nice comes along. Going from earning tens of thousands in a few weeks down to a few thousands a week really is a boom and bust situation.

 

I don't even like cosmetic things that much. Last time I played Overwatch I turned all the people I play back into their vanilla skins because I couldn't be fucked with it. Ultimately it means nothing anymore. It's not like Monster Hunter in every game where you wear your achievements. It's just another thing the devs/pubs know they can carve off and sell to the user. That makes me sad. Going back to Hendo going for that Mercy skin, if it had been built into the game where you had to play Mercy and get some many wins or heals it would have been much more interesting. Sure you would have got some dicks that would instalock Mercy and then do a terrible job chasing the skin, but at least they earned it when it eventually unlocked. At least you'd get a skin for the characters you play instead of it all being a huge lottery.

 

Lootboxes are a crock of shite.

 

1 hour ago, one-armed dwarf said:

People get themselves into debt with gambling. They gamble even further to cover their debt. Gambling is devestating to people precisely cause of the tantalising prospect that all the damage can be made to go away if they just keep spending more money. This is the biggest addiction trigger. Getting a new outfit for Tracer doesn't compare.

 

Tell that to the mugs that spent money on Mass Effect 3 or FIFA. These are just two examples of people running up huge tabs. Back when MTX were rocking up in phone games there wasn't a week that passed where some parent had had to contact Apple to get a huge bill that was putting them in dire straits. If you're a completion or compulsive or aiming for something specific you can run up huge bills.If you don't know what's in those boxes you have an indefinite cost on what the final price is to get all that stuff. That to a lot of people is the very definition of gambling.

 

The monetary value has fuck all to do with it. It's the high of getting what you want. For some their highs are watching their horses come in. For others it's at the bottom of a bottle or taking a pill. For others it's in getting their dicks wet. For some it's building the perfect FUT team or collecting all the skins and toys in Rainbow 6. Sure, the cash is a nice thing when you win, but that's not what drives it, it's much more complicated that you're making it out.

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The complexities is exactly my point though and why I think that trying to sweep lootboxes under the remit of existing gambling legislators isn't helpful to having a productive conversation about how to curb compulsive microtransation purchases. In my mind the discussion is being blinded by the examples of these whales. The "monetary value" ie the payout has everything to do with the pathology of what gets people into these dangerous gambling habits. It's really important and broad statements like "it's just about chasing the high of getting what you want" is oversimplifying a complicated problem. That is my point and many legislators seem to agree. So if progress is going to be made here then the argument should acknowledge these complexities a bit better than it is currently.

 

Racking up a bill of 10 grand in FUT doesn't tell us anything about the user's circumstances or habits but if he was so blind to how much money he was spending I am going to guess that he did not miss it as dearly as the poor fucker who spends their wage packet or benefits on the horses trying to escape debt they owe. In the case of a child racking up a massive bill with Apple the question should be centered around bringing in laws to help make it more difficult for money-ignorant kids to spend so easily. Not to treat it the same as gambling addiction.

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These are the ones that have come forwards. I am sure there's going to be people that have fucked their lives over this. The guy was compulsive though. He kept throwing money at it trying to get what he was aiming for. It's like putting quids in a fruit machine, it's easily done if you don't keep track.

 

I don't think I could disagree more about the money stuff. There becomes a point where it's no longer about that. It's about the psyche pushing into damaging behaviour.

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Microtransactions and lootboxes are at completely different ends of the spectrum. I love Dead By Daylight,so when that gave you options to purchase new costumes and weapons,I was happy to do so. I knew what I was paying for,and could see what I was getting.

 

There’s none of that with Lootboxes. You literally have no idea what you’re getting. It could be shite,for characters you don’t even use in the game. Worse, they don’t eliminate the possibility of “doubles”, so you could end up with something you not only don’t want,but already own. 

 

“But it’s ok,because the game gives me a loot box when I level up!” say some supporters. Bollocks to that. You get one rarely, having to grind a considerable amount to get that one box. Do you get stuff thrown at you regularly,like Modern Warfare 1 did back in the day? Of course you don’t.

 

And to those that say “lootboxes aren’t gambling”, well,how about the countries that have outlawed them, because gambling is exactly what they are. Just look at the poor sod that paid out $500 on lootboxes in Apex Legends,as he was so determined to unlock a ultra rare bit of kit, which only increases in probability due to how many you open. 

 

Fuck loot boxes. They’re an absolute disease,and the sooner they get fucked,the better.

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