Power Fantasy

[Sly Reflex]

I am pretty sure we all know what a power fantasy is, we've all played games that sort of adhere to providing some sort of power fantasy, it can vary from genre to genre but the one I'm going to focus on here is in loot based games and/or the ones that allow you to level up and spend points into getting perks. You're more than invited to share your thoughts on power fantasies withing games outside of those parameters though, I'm interested in what people have to say.

 

I think the obvious place to start this is Destiny 2. Destiny 1 had after a bit of a shaky start one of the best escalations to feeling powerful. Even in the raids you felt that each time you threw a grenade or used your special it felt badass. You know when that Ice Breaker or Gjallarhorn got brought out to play that shit was about to go down. It felt amazing to be part of that. We don't have that now. They've ballsed the power fantasy part of that game up so bad that I barely feel any different from when I started playing. I miss the OP builds that had you nova bombing the fuck out of everything that made you feel like a god if you were skilled enough to do that.

 

Of course Destiny is a bit of a weird beast when it comes to the whole loot and builds sort of thing and it has the same builds you take into the PvE into PVP. In D1 we had some truly shitty times and I don't think it was ever truly balanced, the more they tried to balance the game towards the PvP the more they fucked up the power fantasy of the PvE game. This has continued into D2 with the 2 primaries bollocks. I couldn't stand the PvP in Destiny 2. It was boring and I can't help but think that it's not going to change any time soon until they revert back to how things were done in D1. This of course brings in the imbalance issues towards either PvP or PvE. The only solution I can think of is to make the Crucible part of the game completely free from the PvE part. You have a separate set of armour and weapons and they balance them with specific PvP mentality. That way PvP will always feel as fair as it should be and the PvE weapons won't be shite. You still have a power fantasy of being able to golden gun a fool in crucible but it's at a more measured pace of what something occurring in PvE would be like. When you look at it whenever they add a weapon to the roster it's a balancing nightmare and instead of guns that are fantastic to use you end up with insipid reskins of stuff that already exists at the expense that it'd be too powerful when pointed at other Guardians heads. Nobody in the PvP part of the game wants to be unfairly dicked on. Levelling it all out with a set of predefined weapons that fill in various archetypes feels like the best way to stop the rot on both sides of the PvE and PvP coin. It's still going to be hard to balance those types of weapon but it's going to be much better overall I believe since it allows a more controlled experience while not affecting the PvE part of the game which should be wild.

 

Although I've not played it recently I know The Division had a thing in the actual PvP part of the game where it just boosted every single person that went into that mode up to max level. I played quite a lot of that game before they made it supposedly good and what struck me is that they never really thought out how the PvPvE thing would work out while keeping it all nice and level. They had this area where you had to go to get the best gear in the game and then they populate it with the people that already have the best gear in the game so there was really no leg up for people wanting to reach that point. I think that they just tried to spin the dog eat dog nature of the DZ and think that that was OK game design for us to go and chase a power fantasy, but they sort of underestimated that the people playing that didn't want the fair fight stuff. Fighting the odds isn't satisfying, especially when it's attracting the sort of player that doesn't like to play fair and has the spoils to show for it. The whole trying to balance loot for both PvE and PvP is an impossible task. Blizzard came to this conclusion when they made Diablo III and it's kind of mental that people are still trying to do it with varying degrees of success and failure. You can sort of ease the pressure by putting brackets based on quality of gear but if there's a big gulf between what's considered OK and what's considered god tier then there's always going to be. Feeling like you have a power fantasy over an other player while using a loot system can feel more hit and miss than having a power fantasy over the games AI challenges.

 

Diablo III is a great example of how to do a power fantasy. Even classes that I don't particularly like playing were fun as hell to play in that game, it encourages you to bite off more than you can chew and gives you the tools to do those things, allowing you to swallow down insane challenges without fucking choking yourself. It might not be 100% perfect, but it's a case study that the people that decide to make these sorts of games (looters, top down or otherwise) should pay close attention to. In fact reminiscing on it the classes in this game sort of made me step out of my safe zone when it comes to picking classes. I've never really been a warrior or paladin style player but I can see that I've been more open to the idea of playing out of my social norms and it could be because this game opened my eyes to how fun those power fantasies are.

 

A bit off the beaten track, but the 2 classes from Earth Defence Force 4 onward that split opinions. The Raider and the Fencer. I've gone through countless arguments over these two. I personally think the Raider is fucking toss. He varies from being borderline game breaking to being borderline useless depending on the mission. I've seen outliers use him to such a level where he looks like the best class in the game. Similarly I've seen people call the Fencer the worst class in the game, but all it is is that it takes a bit of time to learn how to use him for him to be pretty much invulnerable to everything the game has to offer. It's this weird perception that people have based on the original two classes of Ranger and Wing Diver? Those two classes feel amazing to play, you get a real power trip while playing as them with the late game weapons. Am I wrong that I think the Raider is rubbish comparatively? Is it a case of me learning to use him? Or is he truly imbalanced? He's the only class I can't really use, but is that a reflection on me (and the many others that can't use him) or is that a reflection on him? Same with the Fencer. Are people just mad because they can't get the best from him, or is it a case of him being too hard to use? I get a feeling that maybe there's parity between fighting game characters here, people complaining that someone is bad when in reality it's just a case of them not knowing how to get the best from them. 

 

Recently I've been playing a lot of PAYDAY2 and that's had a bit of a shake up in regards of a perk that allowed silenced weapons to do better damage. In itself this isn't really a bad thing, but some people found that if you built a very specific way you could basically have a guy that was invincible on all levels of difficulty in the game as long as you could shoot. What Overkill did was remove the silencer skills, but bring every single weapon that could utilise the skills up to a level where they'd do the same damage. This change nullified the silenced anarchist build that was breaking the game and as a result people are using different builds now. Although I have seen a lot of people say that the Inspire aced skill is too strong, I don't think it is, the issue is that for the points investment the other capstone skills need a good old buffing.

 

There's a very clear progression when you start playing PAYDAY2 where you start out as a bit of a wimp and slowly build into the power fantasy of whatever you choose to build into. Those cap skills from each tree should be game changers. Those top skills need to be on the level of Inspire or Iron Man. For the points invested they need to be complete game changers. It's a situation that Destiny found itself in where instead of bringing everything up to a level of the most fun weapons, they hammered those nails down so that they were shite and redundant. I'm not saying that Overkill should end up in the situation where we're in games were people are abusing a god like tier build that can nullify even the hardest challenge the game has to offer, but there has to be builds available to each class of player that mean they can contend with the Inspire and Iron Man builds. There shouldn't be only a select handful of builds that are used because those are the only ones that are viable. A nicely balanced game has a diverse meta and allows you to build a character to your strengths and run with it. Again I'm not saying that every single build should be viable for everything because that's dumb. There's got to be a Goldilocks zone where you have a 'just right' set of builds that can take on what the game has to offer. Each capstone has to make you feel like you are having a power trip, you've come to a level where you're bending the game to your will and there's a big difference between "My placed charges put fire down now for a bit" over "I can shout at down players and revive them". There has to be some sort of even keel there to entice people away from the capstones people complain about without making them terrible choices.

 

Going a bit deeper into that whole build thing got me thinking about Borderlands 2. I played a hell of a lot of Borderlands 2 across various platforms. I got every character up to OP8 and the trip to having a power fantasy there was sort of all over the place. I found that there was a wall that you broke through with most characters (aside from Sal and Axton) where you were sort of next to fucking useless until you knocked it down, and then after that you felt supremely powerful (except Maya, who I understood got a serious buff when Handsome Collection hit). The thing that hits me when I think about it now is how broken some of the builds in that game could be and the game just allows it. It wants you to enjoy that power trip. Not only does it let you have that, but it lets you have it on many different levels. The cap stones were game changers, obviously they weren't all the best options but I think they allowed people of various skills to play how they wanted and get the best out of what was on offer. While a lot of builds became unworkable as you went up the difficulties there was one class that felt equally as viable and give you various power fantasies depending on how you built him.

 

That class in question was the Psycho. I've not really felt the same as a class as I've felt with Krieg, but I really admire what Gearbox did with his skill trees and the power fantasies they led towards. I sort of wish that more games that have the loot/perk stuff would look at how Krieg is and how he fits within his universe and how they knew that you were going to manipulate the game into getting the best out of the builds and loot you went for. The bloodsplosion, melee and fire trees all felt different but all felt compelling and fun to use. I know not a lot of people played The Pre-Sequel from the Borderlands games, but from the people that have played, the characters you could play as all had these tree and builds that allowed you to basically break the game on an equal terms with each other. I know TPS is a different game, but I feel that the designers looked at Krieg and understood the power fantasies at play and carried that through process over to the classes in that particular game. It's those extreme power fantasies we play games for, right?

 

I think it's important to realise that power fantasies are related to that specific person and sometimes you look at something and go "That's not for me" or "I don't know how to make this work". I look at the Monk from Diablo, the Hunter from Destiny or the Rogue from PAYDAY2 and I just don't get the mentality behind them. Even stuff like the Raider from EDF, I can see the appeal and I've seen the destruction and enthusiasm he can cause, but maybe it's lost on me and that's fine I think? Some people want to be the badass sniper. Some people want to be the fearless tank. Some people get their kicks out of preventing people from certain death. Some people even wank themselves clean off at being all sneaky and stealthy.

 

So this has turned into a massive ramble. I'd like to know what you think thought. What do you think about power fantasies and how would you go about cultivating them?

[ThreeFour]

Bored this morning are we?

[Whiskey_chaser]

I never really got the power fantasy thing from Destiny. None of the equipment seemed to change things that much, although my point of comparison came from Diablo 3 where a change in build completely altered the play style. Loved playing Demon Hunter in that, but as you say, not having PvE meant Blizzard could just go nuts with stuff. Getting a new piece of gear was genuinely exciting and your head exploded with possibilities. In Destiny I never got that, I just had a gun that made me shoot things slightly better.

 

I need to fire up Diablo again - superb game.

[Hendo]

That is a very long post.

 

If we’re talking power fantasy, try playing any of the Souls games, getting your character strong enough to get to the end, and then just wander around the early areas that you struggled with.

You feel like a god.

[Whiskey_chaser]

55 minutes ago, Hendo said:

That is a very long post.

 

If we’re talking power fantasy, try playing any of the Souls games, getting your character strong enough to get to the end, and then just wander around the early areas that you struggled with.

You feel like a god.

 

Or if your like me you get cocky and get taken out by a gang of skeletons.

[ThreeFour]

It's right in what you say; it depends on the person and character/game your playing.

 

I've never been bothered about the grind or loot before Destiny. The game has to have that gameplay hook before I can be invested. Being an FPS guy this got me going. Having a fun PvP aswell cemented it into my gaming schedule. From their I wanted the best tool for the job. In every strike, every part of a raid, every class, every PvP map - you name it. I was changing my loadout for the situation at hand and wanted the best available. So began the loot grind.

 

Power fantasy to me isn't being overly powerful. It isn't spamming those right clicks/F keys. It's getting that Crit off because you shot him in his fucking juice box while having adds fondling your balls! It's putting on Celestial Nighthawk, dancing through the mobs, dodging fire and nailing that one shot in a troublesome Ogres fat bastard eye! It's being last man standing in trials and taking all three down with your last 3 sniper bullets!

 

That's power ya pussies ?

[ThreeFour]

Whoever it was that liked my post then removed it; put it back ??

[HandsomeDead]

Since I'm well into Monster Hunter World I do like tweaking a lot in that, messing around with specific builds for specific monsters, fighting other tempered monsters to get more gems used for skills/buffs.  I don't feel like I need to do these builds I just like experimenting and messing around with them.  I don't think I've really come across one that easily dominates, though, since it's still a skill based game.  Though I did dominate a Tempered Odogaron with a paralysis build, once.

 

I don't really like using super, kinda game breaking builds in games.  I always got a bigger kick finding my own fun build that suits my play-style.  Like I never went with the meta with either Destiny's Crucible.  I know there were great weapons and builds, I had them, but I never used them and I'm a contrarian fuck who is too cool to go with the meta so I always enjoyed beating people who used them because like Monster Hunter it is still a skill based game so you can.  I like going against the odds, it's probably the reason I like Destiny's Crucible.

 

So I guess I go with what the most fun is rather than what is optimally the best.

[Sambob]

Its funny to mention this because this is exactly the appeal of many RPGs for me, learning the system and finding that shortcut / unconventional way to become super powerful. Levelling up smithing in Skyrim to get the best armour, prioritising finding the Master Sword in BotW so that I could get the edge earlier on, Grinding out overly difficult strikes in Destiny where you could chip away at the boss in order to get the best loot as soon as possible (fucking RNG)....

The best game ive had for this was the absolutely excellent Divinity Original Sin 2. You start off really weak and especially on Tactician mode have to plan out every single move you play in the fights, and actually pre-fight, and then one of the best things about that game for me was to figure out firstly if it was even possible to become god-like (pun intended, you will understand if you play) and then how on earth you achieve that. After that you realise just how many builds/load outs there are avialable to you to play however you want.

 

I cannot recommend the game highly enough and I think particularly @Sly Reflex will appreciate the mastery on display in terms of a studio knowing its game and genre and making the perfect product. Its a viable strategy to level up a skill that is usually at best a secondary skill - telepathy, useful mainly for reaching far away loot in a few scenarios - and becoming this all out killing machine just by loading up a magic chest, which has had its capacity raised beyond most other chests, with the heaviest items (other magic chests work) and then just carrying it around like its your buddy and dropping it on enemies (telepathy damage in the game scales with the weight of the object). Another viable strategy is to teleport lava around the game, as the engine lets you teleport surfaces too (there is a great mechanic in the game that utilises various combinations of surfaces/elemental types to create different effects) and the lava does immense amounts of elemental damage. These arent hacks either because you encounter enemies in the game that will utilise these mechanics against you at times.

[ThreeFour]

16 minutes ago, DifferentClass said:

Like I never went with the meta with either Destiny's Crucible.  I know there were great weapons and builds, I had them, but I never used them and I'm a contrarian fuck who is too cool to go with the meta so I always enjoyed beating people who used them because like Monster Hunter it is still a skill based game so you can.

I do that. I loved using Messenger in the 'Thorn meta'. Even now I refused to use Mida/Antiope/Last hope too much. Not so bad now now more things are Viable after the last patch. Vigilance Wing was one of my favourites but it's top tier now. I'm still gonna use it!! ?

[Sly Reflex]

8 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Bored this morning are we?

 

You can always tell the news ones, they're always surprised when a thread this long comes up.

 

6 hours ago, Chimay said:

I need to fire up Diablo again - superb game.

 

It is. It may well be the best power fantasy game at delivering multiple threads that you never knew existed.

 

5 hours ago, Hendo said:

Souls stuff

 

I knew this would be here and for good reason. I've been watching my mate play Bloodborne on youtube and watching him develop not only on a skill level but also on a stat level is very satisfying.

 

3 hours ago, ThreeFour said:

Power fantasy to me isn't being overly powerful. It isn't spamming those right clicks/F keys. It's getting that Crit off because you shot him in his fucking juice box while having adds fondling your balls! It's putting on Celestial Nighthawk, dancing through the mobs, dodging fire and nailing that one shot in a troublesome Ogres fat bastard eye!

 

That is a power fantasy though, you're feeling under pressure and achieving your goal. The game's making you feel like a champion by allowing you to pull off those things. Sailing close to the wind of what is capable isn't you being godly, it's the game padding you out and allowing you to do it and making you feel amazing in the process.

 

 

[ThreeFour]

Yeah that's what I meant. That's my kind of power fantasy. One where I have more direct skill involved using the tools provided. I don't get that direct feeling in other looters I've played. But that's because you don't generally get the control like you do in an FPS. Which is probably why I like Destiny so much.

 

And the game doesn't pad me out sonny. Get in crucible I'll show you padded out.

[Sly Reflex]

I'm sure you will, Mr Mouse and Keyboard... 

[ThreeFour]

I'll use a pad with my toes if you want.